Fundy Reaction Responses to Smuggar's Guilty Verdict

[formergothardite]

7 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

I thought Jeremy would steer clear of such a situation himself. 

Probably because to free himself from relying on JB would mean hard work and giving up,in the short term, his fancy lifestyle. But how much money did JB hoard that he could support all these people and their hobbies? 

[SassyPants]

10 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

They are Christians. 

And please don't resort to saying they're fake Christians or somehow hold invalid beliefs. These people are real, and they identify and are identified as Christian (particularly by the media). If you are also a Christian, you need to reckon with this sizable part of your larger faith community. Dismissing them as inauthentic is not a solution to the major problems they have created for all of us in society at large as well as within their own denominations.

And TBH, one can not dismiss the Duggars’ faith and then complain when the Duggars do the same to others’ faiths. I refuse to become the Duggars. They are allowed to believe what they want, and while I do not have to respect those beliefs, and I don’t, they are free to have those beliefs. I also have that same freedom. However, I will work hard to make sure they are not allowed to legislate their beliefs into laws.

[imokit]

I don't think the Duggar's have ever been poor.  They've been miserly and had different financial priorities but not poor.  JBs Mother had real estate, JB & M did real estate pre children.

While they were living in the tiny rental living off not enough rice, they still had money to spend on political campaigns.  They cut financial corners with their kids - home made laundry detergent, cheap quick high carb food - buy used save the difference.  But the pockets went deep even before TLC money.

With TLC money - they've probably invested more than they've spent.  They still live in the same paid for house, the clothes are nicer but not designer and may in fact be cheaper depending on where they're getting them from.  The kids have nice cars and Iphones, but other than that until now, none of the kids have cost any where near as much as been earned from TLC and there have been no splashy purchases.  Its not like JB needs to pay for college for any of his kids.

I think JB will be looking at money again and getting tighter and if Jeremy and Jinger are still sponging off him, they should worry, but I expect he has quite a lot ferreted away still.

[nokidsmom]

4 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Probably because to free himself from relying on JB would mean hard work and giving up,in the short term, his fancy lifestyle. 

Agreed, and as I mentioned the seminarian families I knew certainly did not lead fancy lives.  They lived in seminary housing, which was an older apartment building with small apartments, some of them had a couple of kids already.  One wife I knew was trying to bring in money by doing sewing work at home because with young kids she couldn't work a regular job.  It was very clear things were stressful and money was tight.  Jeremy has to have known such people so he had to have decided at the beginning he was not going go through that.   He might not like JB but willing to take his money.   Once again the faustian bargain and the future pastor who thinks he's gonna save the world takes it.

8 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

But how much money did JB hoard that he could support all these people and their hobbies? 

Always wondered how JB could be able to finance 19 kids x unlimited number of grandkids x hobbies x legal fees for whenever they break the law?   And still expect a decent retirement.

[SassyPants]

3 minutes ago, imokit said:

I don't think the Duggar's have ever been poor.  They've been miserly and had different financial priorities but not poor.  JBs Mother had real estate, JB & M did real estate pre children.

While they were living in the tiny rental living off not enough rice, they still had money to spend on political campaigns.  They cut financial corners with their kids - home made laundry detergent, cheap quick high carb food - buy used save the difference.  But the pockets went deep even before TLC money.

With TLC money - they've probably invested more than they've spent.  They still live in the same paid for house, the clothes are nicer but not designer and may in fact be cheaper depending on where they're getting them from.  The kids have nice cars and Iphones, but other than that until now, none of the kids have cost any where near as much as been earned from TLC and there have been no splashy purchases.  Its not like JB needs to pay for college for any of his kids.

I think JB will be looking at money again and getting tighter and if Jeremy and Jinger are still sponging off him, they should worry, but I expect he has quite a lot ferreted away still.

One correction, JB owned that first house. I don’t think he and M ever rented, even as newlyweds. Also, I think JB has always misrepresented his parents’ finances. I don’t think his parents were poor or poor money managers. They owned businesses (real estate firm and yogurt shop to name 2), had rentals and set up JB with a towing company. Plus they sent JB to private school. We all know JB is a liar. We heard him lie in court. JB, like Trump, is a person who was born between 2nd and 3rd base and wants everyone to think that on his own volition he hit a grand slam while being blindfolded and having no arms. And guess what, with a little more Jesus you can do it too. JB is a fraud, and it’s starting to be exposed.

[xenobia]

10 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

One correction, JB owned that first house. I don’t think he and M ever rented, even as newlyweds. Also, I think JB has always misrepresented his parents’ finances. I don’t think his parents were poor or poor money managers. They owned businesses (real estate firm and yogurt shop to name 2), had rentals and set up JB with a towing company. Plus they sent JB to private school. We all know JB is a liar. We heard him lie in court. JB, like Trump, is a person who was born between 2nd and 3rd base and wants everyone to think that on his own volition he hit a grand slam while being blindfolded and having no arms. And guess what, with a little more Jesus you can do it too. JB is a fraud, and it’s starting to be exposed.

We also know that at one point JB's father was in prison for a used car fraud scheme, so I don't think that it's all sunshine, roses and money in his background. 

[imokit]

10 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

One correction, JB owned that first house. I don’t think he and M ever rented, even as newlyweds. Also, I think JB has always misrepresented his parents’ finances. I don’t think his parents were poor or poor money managers. They owned businesses (real estate firm and yogurt shop to name 2), had rentals and set up JB with a towing company. Plus they sent JB to private school. We all know JB is a liar. We heard him lie in court. JB, like Trump, is a person who was born between 2nd and 3rd base and wants everyone to think that on his own volition he hit a grand slam while being blindfolded and having no arms. And guess what, with a little more Jesus you can do it too. JB is a fraud, and it’s starting to be exposed.

Exactly.  The Duggars have never been poor (or honest about how much money they have).  They've made the kids go without, but that was due to their own financial choices to save money or spend it on other things (like politics), it wasn't due to actual poverty.

[xenobia]

About Jeremy and Jinger: I think it's possible that they negotiated a separate contract with TLC when they started life in Laredo after they got married. It wouldn't be a huge amount of money compared to what Jinger would be entitled to from TLC for all the 19KAC and CO, but it would at least be a good help along the way. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by xenobia
crappy spelling

[gustava]

4 hours ago, lizzybee said:

f you hate this, remember I'm just answering your questions and please don't shoot the messenger.

I very much appreciate your thoughtful response.

[Freejin]

So out of the kids we’ve heard from Jill, Jessa, Jinger, Jason (posting Jeremy’s post) and that’s it right?

[Father Son Holy Goat]

4 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

@lizzybee, can’t thank you enough for your info about reformed theology.  It is not sounding like the Christianity I learned in the Lutheran tradition, so I’m going to re-read very carefully.  
 

I’m officially an old, and mellowing, but a significant part of my soul wants to rage against the people who’ve scrummed up so terribly the simple message of G-D’s love for humanity.  For their screwed-up behaviors that cast the beauty of the beliefs as twisted.  I just don’t know, anymore. But I will know. Thank you again. 

Now I have to know, which Lutheran tradition?

[Jinderella]

25 minutes ago, xenobia said:

About Jeremy and Jinger: I think it's possible that they negotiated a separate contract with TLC when they started life in Laredo after they got married. It wouldn't be a huge amount of money compared to what Jinger would be entitled to from TLC for all the 19KAC and CO, but it would at least be a good help along the way. 

I think so too, because I don’t see JB forking out huge amounts of money over to his children at all. An old house he got for a bargain when they marry, an old car lot with a shed, the use of his plane, a job at one of his companies, but nothing like the trust fund they should get after a working childhood.

Jessa is always promoting the family and Ben is the private teacher for JB’s underaged children, but their lifestyle is nowhere near as luxurious as that of Jinjer. I can’t see JB paying for Jingers jackets and Jerms coffees. 

Is there any evidence JB gives his adult children something like an allowance? Or is it just a one time gift or investment and compensation for extra “chores”?

[Father Son Holy Goat]

44 minutes ago, xenobia said:

We also know that at one point JB's father was in prison for a used car fraud scheme, so I don't think that it's all sunshine, roses and money in his background. 

Whaaaaaaat?

Spoiler

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Father Son Holy Goat

[noseybutt]

52 minutes ago, imokit said:

Exactly.  The Duggars have never been poor (or honest about how much money they have).  They've made the kids go without, but that was due to their own financial choices to save money or spend it on other things (like politics), it wasn't due to actual poverty.

100%.

Most young adults these days start off in debt and it is a few years before they break even much less accumulate assets.

Jim Bob and MIchelle would have accumulated assets from the very beginning. I would add in that in addition to their own financial/lifestyle choices, there were also in a low cost of living area. They owned a home (never rented), reasonable utility bills and taxes, appear to have good health (healthcare costs would have been commensurate or lower than others in their community), would have been in a position to avoid debt (eg pay cash for cars), no need or desire for fancy entertainment, trips, or clothes. 

--hit return too soon--

I would imagine that JB has a wide ranging portfolio of assets. 

I expect the adult children who understand the math will follow a similar path. Live within their means, avoid debt, snag home ownership as soon as possible, invest young.

In the long run, the early asset builders will be fine. Even if they have high expenses, they still know understand the basic formula and have the means to return to it. (This is not generations of poverty.)

The JerJing dynamic is interesting precisely because they have tossed the formula out the window. I expect that they will be the ones with future financial difficulties.

Edited December 11, 2021 by noseybutt

[SassyPants]

59 minutes ago, xenobia said:

We also know that at one point JB's father was in prison for a used car fraud scheme, so I don't think that it's all sunshine, roses and money in his background. 

All this tells me is that JB Duggar got the lying, scheming, misrepresentation, the laws do not apply to me Gene from his father. James Lawrence to James Robert to Joshua James. Hopefully with JJ in jail, Michael, M boys 2 and 3 won’t be as bathed in these behaviors.

Edited December 11, 2021 by SassyPants

[Freejin]

14 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Whaaaaaaat?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Interestingly that’s an area where JB was the most honest. In early 19 kids episodes he alludes to his father being irresponsible during his upbringing. It’s a way of being holier than thou - my dad was imperfect but that’s only encouraged me to be the perfect father I am today. 

[shesinsane]

I've seen more than one "Jim Bob and Michelle aren't perfect", but the Duggars never claimed to be perfect. No one is calling them out for not being perfect, they're being criticized for allowing one of their children to repeatedly abuse his siblings. There are lots of parents that, for whatever reason, we may consider far from perfect, but they're all going to rank higher than Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar simply because they didn't permit any of their children to abuse others. Or downplay what happened to one injured child to protect the child that inflicted the injury. Or continually lie to protect a dangerous child while he grows up and has children of his own...

Also making putting them a continent away from perfect parents: the fact that Michelle and JB were raising a child they knew was harming other children while frequently traveling to tell the world their family was terrific and encouraging others to try their strict parenting methods.

 

[SassyPants]

Just now, Freejin said:

Interestingly that’s an area where JB was the most honest. In early 19 kids episodes he alludes to his father being irresponsible during his upbringing. It’s a way of being holier than thou - my dad was imperfect but that’s only encouraged me to be the perfect father I am today. 

JB belittled his father and treated him like crap when he was dying (per the show) because JL did not agree with JB’s/M irresponsible procreation. Interestingly enough Gil’s parents voiced the same concerns. FOR GOSH SAKES, which parent wouldn’t? 15 kids in a 3 BR a house. I’d have said the same if my kids were doing these things.

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

However, I will work hard to make sure they are not allowed to legislate their beliefs into laws.

ITA. I wish I had solutions to the major problems that white evangelical Christianity has created for all Americans but keeping their theocratic views out of state and federal law is a good place to start.

Re: Duggar finances. However much they earned or still have, there's no doubt that JB and Michelle have spent a big chunk of it on Josh's legal fees, with more to come if they follow through on the appeal. 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by hoipolloi

[xenobia]

41 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Whaaaaaaat?

 

I don't remember all the details, but it was discussed on several forums earlier this fall. (Don't know how to search the Reddit forum). Apparenty grandpa Duggar - James Lee - was involved in some kind of used car scheme. He spent some time in prison for that in 1981. 

[Jasmar]

5 hours ago, lizzybee said:

Ok so in reformed theology you're dead in sin and the whole idea of Jesus saving you when you're drowning in sin is rejected. You've already drowned and are dead indeed.  The jig is up for you unless God does something. Salvation is God's doing, and has nothing to do with you. You, sinful being as you are, cannot accept or desire salvation unless God places the desire in you first and he does not do this for everyone. If you read Jinger and Jeremy's book he references quite a lot that his theology was very different from the Duggar family's and I expect this was the thing that JB, JB's pastor, and Jeremy kept going around and around about because those of the IFB persuasion would say you must break your own heart and seek the free salvation offered to you. Reformed says you aren't capable of doing that, sinful being that you are.*

There are, according to the bible, people who would seek to profess Christ that are not of Christ and will lead others astray and hurt them. J&J seem to have determined indeed that Josh is not a true Christian, but a person who is going along with the rest of them for his own reasons and benefits. Indeed, even those who are not of the reformed persuasion identify that at some point a person who is raised in a Christian home must at some point stop living off of their parents' faith and determine what they believe themselves. If you believe you seek your own salvation, well that's what you must do. If you believe that God seeks you, and not the other way around, it'll be this point that you'll fall away or display signs of a lack of salvation if God has not indeed sought you. Either way, they can draw the same conclusion with Josh: that someone that has behaved as he has done, doesn't actually believe what they believe, because if he did, he wouldn't be able to do the things he has done and continue to lie about whether he's done them and be so spectacularly without remorse or call himself a Christian. 

Of course there's no way to know what Josh really believes or what is going through his mind ever. I'm merely explaining what they're likely thinking here based on what they have said. 

*I feel like this is the logical next question so I'll go ahead and answer it. Many people who hear the idea of election are really upset by it because how can a good God accept damnation for some and save others according to his own prerogative. The answer I have seen over and over is that God is both just and merciful. Those who are sent to hell are receiving Justice for their sins and those that God has offered salvation have received Mercy. Go read Romans Chapter 9 if you want to further see where they're getting these ideas. 

If you hate this, remember I'm just answering your questions and please don't shoot the messenger. 🤪

Thank you so much for typing this out. Reformed soteriology was the first crack in my Christianity, about two years after I converted. I actually had what they used to call a nervous breakdown over it, because if I weren’t saved, and there was no real way to know if I were, there was nothing I could do about it. It started an OCD-type spiral in my mind, and I honestly needed to be hospitalized, but got “counseling” from an older Christian woman instead. I managed to shove a lid down on it for another few years, until we moved to a church with a Mark Driscoll fanboy as pastor, super hard core Calvinist. Had another several months of really needing solid psychiatric help that I didn’t get.

It wasn’t until I left my covert-narcissist husband with a years-long hidden drinking problem, and was quietly shunned, dropped, or just ignored by most of my Christian community, that I finally left. Reading here was also a huge piece of really questioning, like why would God give me a great parking spot today and still allow children to be murdered elsewhere?

Phew, that got long. All that to say, thank for spelling this out for everyone. It still makes me feel shaky inside to try to explain it to people.

[Jinder Roles]

@formergothardite Reformed theology is very harsh but also the only one that makes logical sense to me. I’ve never understood how God could be good if he is the orchestrator of all. Growing up I often questioned how we could have free will if God is all-powerful. The power dynamics are wonky. 
 

While JB definitely spit in the daughters’ faces by lying in court and defending Josh, saying they love him is required in their belief system. It’s not a diss. Christians are literally called to love everyone. To not do so - especially as parents - is sinful. 
 

It’s really difficult to decipher if statements are a “fuck you” or are them using their belief system to process what has happened. Again, it’s sinful to disrespect your parents. It’s also highly discouraged with publicize your disagreements with other believers. And Christian culture is notoriously subtle with it’s shade. The only statement that’s a clear “fuck you dad” is the Dillard’s. 
 

@lizzybeethanks for the explanations! 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Jinder Roles

[HerNameIsBuffy]

42 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

which parent wouldn’t?

Grandma Mary, who along with JB shopped the show to TLC after the molestations happened.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, xenobia said:

About Jeremy and Jinger: I think it's possible that they negotiated a separate contract with TLC when they started life in Laredo after they got married. It wouldn't be a huge amount of money compared to what Jinger would be entitled to from TLC for all the 19KAC and CO, but it would at least be a good help along the way. 

Figure 8/TLC is a for profit business. Why would this business contract with the Vuolos specifically and separately? Why Laredo? This makes no business sense to me. The Vuolos were doing nothing compelling, interesting or entertaining. Further, they couldn’t even supply the freak show element that the rest of the clan brought. Think about what the Duggars brought to TLC: odd family dynamics, a peek into a family circus, unusual beliefs (courting, little schooling, no jobs), dormitory  bedrooms, weird food choices. Many, many, people tuned in for the looky loo aspect. How do you go to the dentist with 19 kids? How do you grocery shop for a family of nearly 20 people? The Vuolos offered none of that. Heck, they couldn’t even interact with a good portion of their community members as they never took the time to learn Spanish.

2 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Grandma Mary, who along with JB shopped the show to TLC after the molestations happened.

Since she is passed, I’ll zip my lips about her.

[MamaJunebug]

1 hour ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Now I have to know, which Lutheran tradition?

Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.  They have a good collection of explanations of their theology on their site & I’ll try to link it here. 
ETA the link: https://resources.lcms.org/reading-study/what-about-pamphlets/

I haven’t been an active member in ages. If you don’t find anything on the site feel free to ask, and I’ll see if I can help you find it. I still need to read the reformed theology description much more closely. However on my first read, it seemed unexpectedly foreign to how I’d been taught. 
Happy reading! 

Edited December 11, 2021 by MamaJunebug