Joe Biden 2: President Dark Brandon For The Win!

[noseybutt]

45 minutes ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

I agree young people AND independents. The only issue on the dems side is abortion. For whatever reason the news/the  talk/the "story" is that biden is bad at economy and trump is good. I know that's not true but it's what every day people think.

Young people are REALLY pissed about gaza too. my various feeds - the young people are crazy angry and are saying biden is equally bad to trump. 

I'm truly confused as to why any minority voter would support trump. That's just delusions at this point that he's going to do anything beneficial there.

We’ve discussed this before and the bottom line is that Biden and Trump are not all that far apart on issues like Gaza, immigration, and criminal justice which are issues that tend to be less important to white communities.

SCOTUS is downright frightening and you would hope Democrats would figure out a way to capitalize on that.

 

[Shrubbery]

I think if Biden were to be replaced it would need to come from him. If he were to stand up and say, „I’ve come to the conclusion that I cannot, with a clear conscience, run for president again because I may not be able to do all that needs to be done but I very strongly endorse Replacement Candidate X“ that could really work, as opposed to a scenario where Dem Leaders coup him. 
 

Big question of course who X would be, logically it’s Harris but I’m sorry to say for chance optimization a straight white dude around 50 would be best …

[libgirl2]

6 minutes ago, Shrubbery said:

I think if Biden were to be replaced it would need to come from him. If he were to stand up and say, „I’ve come to the conclusion that I cannot, with a clear conscience, run for president again because I may not be able to do all that needs to be done but I very strongly endorse Replacement Candidate X“ that could really work, as opposed to a scenario where Dem Leaders coup him. 
 

Big question of course who X would be, logically it’s Harris but I’m sorry to say for chance optimization a straight white dude around 50 would be best …

My husband said it this morning, we need a white guy about 50-60 years old. And I agree, it would have to come from him. 

Edited June 28 by libgirl2

[Shrubbery]

He could interpret himself as a modern-day Cincinnatus, the experienced statesman who steered the Republic back into calmer waters when it was in trouble and then voluntarily stepped down again to hand over the helm to a younger generation. 

I really think it could work that way, but does he have the greatness to see it or is he too in love with the office?
 

(Bonus points if he did the announcement in Cincinnati.)

[noseybutt]

7 hours ago, Shrubbery said:

He could interpret himself as a modern-day Cincinnatus, the experienced statesman who steered the Republic back into calmer waters when it was in trouble and then voluntarily stepped down again to hand over the helm to a younger generation. 

I really think it could work that way, but does he have the greatness to see it or is he too in love with the office?
 

(Bonus points if he did the announcement in Cincinnati.)

I am very skeptical he would do this. He has shown a fairly steady decline over the last few years and yet has given no indication of even considering. Further, the old guard does not want Kamala Harris and I think it would be hard for Biden to bypass her given how he was discouraged by Obama from running in 2016 in favor of Clinton.

But we can hope, yes?

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

Harris would be even worse I'm sorry to say. She got so flustered with Anderson Cooper. And realistically a woman - any woman - I think drives people to republicans. Then you add on person of color. It's just a no go.  It's not an issue for me, but it IS an issue for other people, especially the sort of people who aren't sure yet. People don't trust women to be in charge, especially of our "safety" as a nation. And Harris has so much less experience than various men who could be offered up. I think it sucks - not my opinion - but I think it is a seldom mentioned factor. 

Did you guy's see Bidens fiery speech today - It was killer. Where was that dude yesterday!!?? It was amazing. I was sucked it to watching most of it (and I hate listening to speeches).

Biden needs to get out there and be that guy every day from now til november.

Obama needs to come out and stop making quiet little "chats" that sound friendly and reassuring. Now's not the time. 

They need to talking about the crazy and they need to be talking about the supreme court  and they need to strike the fear into the independents and dems who are sitting around thinking "oh well it won't come to that...people would keep trump in check if he's elected again...it's just 4 years...what does it matter"

 

 

 

[libgirl2]

12 hours ago, noseybutt said:

I am very skeptical he would do this. He has shown a fairly steady decline over the last few years and yet has given no indication of even considering. Further, the old guard does not want Kamala Harris and I think it would be hard for Biden to bypass her given how he was discouraged by Obama from running in 2016 in favor of Clinton.

But we can hope, yes?

I still say if Biden would have run in 2016, we wouldn't have been and be  in this trump mess. 

[noseybutt]

9 hours ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

Harris would be even worse I'm sorry to say. She got so flustered with Anderson Cooper. And realistically a woman - any woman - I think drives people to republicans. Then you add on person of color. It's just a no go.  It's not an issue for me, but it IS an issue for other people, especially the sort of people who aren't sure yet. People don't trust women to be in charge, especially of our "safety" as a nation. And Harris has so much less experience than various men who could be offered up. I think it sucks - not my opinion - but I think it is a seldom mentioned factor. 

Did you guy's see Bidens fiery speech today - It was killer. Where was that dude yesterday!!?? It was amazing. I was sucked it to watching most of it (and I hate listening to speeches).

Biden needs to get out there and be that guy every day from now til november.

Obama needs to come out and stop making quiet little "chats" that sound friendly and reassuring. Now's not the time. 

They need to talking about the crazy and they need to be talking about the supreme court  and they need to strike the fear into the independents and dems who are sitting around thinking "oh well it won't come to that...people would keep trump in check if he's elected again...it's just 4 years...what does it matter"

 

 

 

It’s the fact that he is very off one day and then on the next that suggests an underlying neurological condition. 

Democrats need to stop the very serious denial. It’s like a family argument over whether grandpa’s car keys should be taken and the correct answer is usually: months ago already.

His stutter and mild aphasia is one thing and easily overlooked. But during the debate (and in other settings as reported by reputable witnesses) he is exhibiting dysphonia, waxy facial features and slowed eye blink, stiff movements, progressive aphasia, and memory impairment.

These are not mild symptoms.

Edited June 29 by noseybutt

[kpmom]

This drives me crazy. 
The other guy took Covid so cavalier we had many more deaths than necessary. He put a Supreme Court in place that took away roe v wade (“It’s settled law. We’d never overturn it!”). Aligned himself with such nuts we were actually hearing stuff about Jewish lasers changing votes!  Had his followers hanging off government buildings while members of congress hid under their desks. And oh btw, is now a convicted criminal!!

And yet the democrats are wringing their hands about Biden?

 

Seriously?  SERIOUSLY???

 

Get your fucking act together Democrats!  
 

Jesus Christ, if they don’t capitalize on all that bullshit and let that complete nut back in the White House they don’t deserve crap. 

[Smee]

Trump didn't do WELL, it's just that the shock of seeing Biden look so much like a doddering old man (which he is) worked in Trump's favour. There is sooo much footage of Trump sounding completely incoherent at his rallies and getting famous people's names wrong or historical dates or places etc. But it's terribly sad that American politics has reached a state where in order to keep a convicted felon from becoming President, you have to vote for an 81 year old man who struggles to speak clearly and coherently anymore. Biden has done good things in his political career and should have been enjoying his retirement. Four years ago it was (probably justified) fear that that 'no one else' could beat Trump and the American public wouldn't elect a woman or a gay man, so Dems went with the 'safe' boring option and now look. I can't for the life of me figure out why he even wanted a second term.

On 6/29/2024 at 1:38 PM, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

Did you guy's see Bidens fiery speech today - It was killer. Where was that dude yesterday!!?? It was amazing. I was sucked it to watching most of it (and I hate listening to speeches).

Biden needs to get out there and be that guy every day from now til november.

 

 

I haven't paid as much attention to Biden over the past few years, because I'm in a different country and he didn't strike terror into me the way Trump did. It was nice and safe being able to go "oh yeah, that's the US president, I know him" but not actually know very much, like I do with the UK Prime Minister or the French President. But that also means I don't have a strong opinion on him, I'm not a 'fan' or a Democrat voter coz I'm not a citizen of your country. And this? Sorry to say it but if this is him 'fiery' then you've got problems, because to me he still comes across like an old man ranting rather than a competent political leader inspiring hope in his people.

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

ahhaha....we don't have politicians who inspire hope in people. That's not a thing we do here. It's all about fear. 

[AnywhereButHere]

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jun/30/biden-meeting-family-political-future

Quote

Joe Biden is set to meet with his family on Sunday to talk about his political future in a meeting that was scheduled before Thursday’s debate.

The meeting at Camp David comes as pressures have mounted on Biden after the vast fallout of the debate, in which his halting performance highlighted his vulnerabilities in a close election and invited calls from pundits, media and voters for him to step aside.

So, it looks like there is a conversation happening. The rest of the article goes on to say that publicly anyway, there are only plans to go forward, but who knows. 
 

If he does drop out, he could certainly name his choice of successor, but I’m pretty sure it’s not that simple. Biden would release his delegates, and then it would, I think, have to go to the convention floor with nominations and votes. It’s the old style, Wild West of politics which is(to use my favorite word of late)chaotic, but it may not be a bad thing in at least one sense. If there is a floor vote at the convention, it’s four days of nominations and voting which is great theater. Talk about sucking the limelight away from Trump.
 

I don’t know who would wind up coming out of that show. Husband’s thoughts were possibly Gavin Newsome, Pete Buttigieg, or Gretchen Whitmer. Possibly Joe Manchin. He’s not busy these days. He’s not necessarily popular among democrats but may appeal to centrist republicans. He also thought Biden’s first choice may have to be Kamala Harris, but honestly, I really hope not. I don’t think she can win. Of course, I also had a post up here about Biden doing well in debates, and look at how well that aged. So, maybe don’t listen to me…

However it shakes out, I will be 100% behind that candidate. 
 

 

Edited June 30 by AnywhereButHere

[noseybutt]

1 hour ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

ahhaha....we don't have politicians who inspire hope in people. That's not a thing we do here. It's all about fear. 

Currently, yes. Previously, no. Obama was very much about hope.

[Audrey2]

1 hour ago, AnywhereButHere said:

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jun/30/biden-meeting-family-political-future

So, it looks like there is a conversation happening. The rest of the article goes on to say that publicly anyway, there are only plans to go forward, but who knows. 
 

If he does drop out, he could certainly name his choice of successor, but I’m pretty sure it’s not that simple. Biden would release his delegates, and then it would, I think, have to go to the convention floor with nominations and votes. It’s the old style, Wild West of politics which is(to use my favorite word of late)chaotic, but it may not be a bad thing in at least one sense. If there is a floor vote at the convention, it’s four days of nominations and voting which is great theater. Talk about sucking the limelight away from Trump.
 

I don’t know who would wind up coming out of that show. Husband’s thoughts were possibly Gavin Newsome, Pete Buttigieg, or Gretchen Whitmer. Possibly Joe Manchin. He’s not busy these days. He’s not necessarily popular among democrats but may appeal to centrist republicans. He also thought Biden’s first choice may have to be Kamala Harris, but honestly, I really hope not. I don’t think she can win. Of course, I also had a post up here about Biden doing well in debates, and look at how well that aged. So, maybe don’t listen to me…

However it shakes out, I will be 100% behind that candidate. 
 

 

I would like to see Roy Cooper and Andy Bashir added to that list. (The governor of reddish purple North Carolina as well as the governor of very red Kentucky.) I hate to say it but I think our best chance me be a well thought of governor of a red or purplish red state. And yes I know the main reason that North Carolina looks so red is extreme gerrymandering.

[Howl]

I'm still Ridin' with Biden.  No, he won't drop out.  He was on fire in North Carolina a few hours later. 

Fucking MSM won't look at the CONTENT of the debates.  Trump lied relentlessly while Biden made points, because Biden is about policy and actually doing government. 

Heather Cox Richardson noted that Trump employs a Gish Gallop.  He's literally a firehouse of lies and bullshit, making it difficult to respond to just one thing. Also, CNN didn't bother to emply a fact checker to counter Trump's relentless lies, so WTAF, CNN? 

And no, Biden isn't doddering on the edge of senility.  He's still functioning and running the country. 

MSM refuses to focus on Trump - an obese drug addict who many medical professionals have called out as actually being in some stage of dementia, backed up by specific observations - and calling for him to step aside.  Trump's rallies are ground zero for seeing him for the train wreck that he is.  He blathers, rants, rambles and makes ZERO sense.  Anything even marginally coherent is coming off a teleprompter. 

Every functional adult who served in Trump's previous administration has called him out as utterly unfit for office, a danger to the country and many have come forth to endorse Biden.  Why isn't MSM hammering that relentlessly?  Every day, in every headline.  Why aren't we seeing Trumps blathering idiocy at his rallies a topic discussed every day, in every headline?  His felony convictions and and losing to E. Jean Carroll?  

By the way, the family visit to Camp David was planned well in advance.  Framing it as a family summit to discuss Biden continuing to run is idle speculation. 

Just wanted to offer a counter argument. Biden is the incumbent. Democrats cannot win without Biden at the head of the ticket.  

Edited June 30 by Howl

[Howl]

Jennifer Palmieri @ jmpalmieri tweeted:   Friends, lot of legit concern. But not only is there no evidence that debate has hurt @JoeBiden chances, campaign has had 2 strong days. Raised 26 million, undecideds broke his way in focus groups, some improving polls. Dems in NC had his back after a great speech we should too...Dems aren’t like MAGA R’s, we don’t blindly follow leaders off a cliff, so there’s been understandable consideration last 2 days about whether Biden is best nominee. But w/out evidence suggesting otherwise, It’s a pretty bad idea to not have his back.

 

Edited June 30 by Howl

[noseybutt]

My eyes rolled hard at the gish gallop commentary. Because that is standard behavior that law enforcement, judges, mental health, and school principals deal with on the regular. It’s not that hard. Putin is far more sophisticated.

Edited June 30 by noseybutt

[Howl]

20 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

My eyes rolled hard at the gish gallop commentary. Because that is standard behavior that law enforcement, judges, mental health, and school principals deal with on the regular. It’s not that hard. Putin is far more sophisticated.

Here's a snip from Heather Cox Richardson's take on the Gish Gallop in her Letters from an American, June 27, 2024:  

...It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.

It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has. It is similar to what Trump did to Biden during a debate in 2020. In that case, though, the lack of muting on the mics left Biden simply saying: “Will you shut up, man?” a comment that resonated with the audience. Giving Biden the enforced space to answer by killing the mic of the person not speaking tonight actually made the technique more effective.

There are ways to combat the Gish gallop—by calling it out for what it is, among other ways—but Biden retreated to trying to give the three pieces of evidence that established his own credentials on the point at hand. His command of those points was notable, but the difference between how he sounded at the debate and how he sounded on stage at a rally in Raleigh, North Carolina, just an hour afterward suggested that the technique worked on him. 

That’s not ideal, but as Monique Pressley put it, “The proof of Biden’s ability to run the country is the fact that he is running it. Successfully. Not a debate performance against a pathological lying sociopath.” 

Cox Richardson goes on to note, and this is the point I was trying to make in my earlier post about MSM:  "A much bigger deal is what it says that the television media and pundits so completely bought into Trump’s performance. They appear to have accepted Trump’s framing of the event—that he is dominant—so fully that the fact Trump unleashed a flood of lies and non-sequiturs simply didn’t register. And, since the format established that the CNN journalists running the debate did not challenge anything either candidate said, and Dale’s fact-checking spot came long after the debate ended, the takeaway of the event was a focus on Biden’s age rather than on Trump’s inability to tell the truth or form a coherent thought. 
 

 

 

Edited June 30 by Howl

[Jana814]

I really felt bad for Biden on Thursday. But I saw a clip from a rally from Friday & he seemed fine. 

[AnywhereButHere]

I usually avoid Heather Cox Richardson, because I swear, every time I read her articles during the 2020 election, she was on the doomier/gloomier side, and she stressed me the hell out! That said, I do trust her opinion, so I was reassured (and pleasantly surprised) reading her column breaking down the debate. 

I do think we, as a party, tend to jump to “the sky is falling”. I think if Biden withdraws (although like @Howl I don’t see it happening), there is a way to salvage the election. It would be messy but possible.  I’d rather not put it to the test though, and  I stand by what I said the morning after the debate. Bad day or not - Biden is the same guy everyone was cheering after the SOTU and his speech over Memorial Day, and we all just need to step back and breathe. If it happens that he does back out, I will throw my support 100% behind whoever inherits the candidacy. If he does not, my support is 100 % with him. 
 

I have an old friend who is definitely more far left than I am.  She was very much a Bernie supporter, a current AOC/Squad supporter, not a Biden supporter at all (other than she’d vote for bugs bunny before seeing Trump win). She wants all of the far left policies instituted like yesterday. So I was surprised to see she was one of the first ones on Facebook calling for a full throated support of Biden after the debate. She’s also a big reader of Heather Cox Richardson, so I think that column influenced her a bit. Anyway, if she can stop, breathe, think, and support Biden going forward - I have hope that others can too. It’s a good sign for me. 
 

Holy cow, I’ve been wordy lately. Crazy election stress brings out the brain dump apparently. 

[Audrey2]

1 minute ago, AnywhereButHere said:

 

Holy cow, I’ve been wordy lately. Crazy election stress brings out the brain dump apparently

No worries. I think a lot of us are terrified for friends and family, as well as the country itself, if Convicted Felon Donald Trump is elected again.

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

I support biden 100% but that "debate" was awful. I wondered why they wanted it but figured maybe they had some idea of how to swing it. But yikes.

hopefully things even out and trump doesn't suddenly learn to control his mouth,

I hope more and more we hear about abortion, birth control and even divorce. I don't see this stuff being mentioned. I don't know that biden can win on bringing up economy. but freaking people out that republicans want to take away birth control and divorce .

Ugh I can't believe we have months and months more of this. 

[noseybutt]

3 hours ago, Howl said:

Here's a snip from Heather Cox Richardson's take on the Gish Gallop in her Letters from an American, June 27, 2024:  

...It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.

It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has. It is similar to what Trump did to Biden during a debate in 2020. In that case, though, the lack of muting on the mics left Biden simply saying: “Will you shut up, man?” a comment that resonated with the audience. Giving Biden the enforced space to answer by killing the mic of the person not speaking tonight actually made the technique more effective.

There are ways to combat the Gish gallop—by calling it out for what it is, among other ways—but Biden retreated to trying to give the three pieces of evidence that established his own credentials on the point at hand. His command of those points was notable, but the difference between how he sounded at the debate and how he sounded on stage at a rally in Raleigh, North Carolina, just an hour afterward suggested that the technique worked on him. 

That’s not ideal, but as Monique Pressley put it, “The proof of Biden’s ability to run the country is the fact that he is running it. Successfully. Not a debate performance against a pathological lying sociopath.” 

Cox Richardson goes on to note, and this is the point I was trying to make in my earlier post about MSM:  "A much bigger deal is what it says that the television media and pundits so completely bought into Trump’s performance. They appear to have accepted Trump’s framing of the event—that he is dominant—so fully that the fact Trump unleashed a flood of lies and non-sequiturs simply didn’t register. And, since the format established that the CNN journalists running the debate did not challenge anything either candidate said, and Dale’s fact-checking spot came long after the debate ended, the takeaway of the event was a focus on Biden’s age rather than on Trump’s inability to tell the truth or form a coherent thought. 
 

 

 

 

This is an endless loop. I have long said that Democrats will always face an uphill battle when they define themselves as what-Trump-is-not rather than putting forth an actual agenda and focusing on what they stand for. Stop being on the defensive.

But there is a rather obvious issue that Biden shows significant neurological symptoms.

But Trump has more! And Trump is dishonest!

Well duh. That is true too.

It still doesn’t change the fact that Biden is increasingly frail and has been for some time and the Democrats should have stopped the denial a long time ago.

But Trump.

So here we are.

 

 

 

[SPHASH]

I like Harris but I don't think she's POTUS material.  In a perfect world I'd like to see Amy Klobuchar but the left wing and BLM won't support her.  I like the idea of Manchin/Harris but Manchin is in his 70s.  Roy Cooper,, Andy Bashear, and Gretchen Whitmer would be the best options at this point.

One thing to point out Biden did that debate with a cold.  If Trump had a cold he would have bailed.  Who has more stamina.

[kpmom]

1 hour ago, noseybutt said:

 

This is an endless loop. I have long said that Democrats will always face an uphill battle when they define themselves as what-Trump-is-not rather than putting forth an actual agenda and focusing on what they stand for. Stop being on the defensive.

 

 

 

 

Amen, amen, amen. 
 

The party that *should* be on the defensive is not, and the one that shouldn’t be is. Crazy town. 
 

Reading the tweet that @Howl quoted above about Dems not following their leaders off a cliff like the MAGA’s do.  Ya know, I’m thinking maybe in this case it’s time we do. 
 
 

Edited June 30 by kpmom