Josh & Anna 58: Losing JB's Money All the Way to the Supreme Court

[Cam]

To anyone who was ever a Trump supporter, who maybe voted for him twice—to anyone like that who has finally said, “Enough. I can no longer support this man”, to those people I would never gloat. It’s not about rubbing it in, or proving that I was right all along or how could they have been so stupid or anything like that. Anyone who wants to come over to the blue side, the President Biden side, I welcome. No judgement from me. I wanna make it easy for people to change their minds about Trump and not feel like they’re going to get blasted for it. If I can help facilitate someone’s transition away from Trump, for whatever reason(s) to voting for President Biden, let me smooth the way.

 

On 6/6/2024 at 1:23 PM, Coconut Flan said:

We have wandered far, far from Josh and Anna and the recent discussion should be in politics where it might garner more well deserved attention.  I'll move it if that's what people want.  I think consideration should be given by posters to take it up in its true home.  Otherwise, carry on.  

 

I looked over at the political section but it seemed to have a different vibe than the discussion going on here.

As for Anna, her spin on it is probably, “Now you (Trump supporters) see how Trump was wrongly convicted, and that’s the same thing that happened to my Joshy Boy!” Oh, she feels somewhat vindicated. Anna sees the court system as corrupt because it didn’t give her the results she wanted. She thinks she’s some kind of expert because she attended her headship’s trial for x number of days and she talked to lawyers. I’m sure Josh’s attorneys told her everything she wanted to hear while they were cashing JB’s checks for Josh’s defense. Ka-ching!

[Alisamer]

12 minutes ago, Cam said:

As for Anna, her spin on it is probably, “Now you (Trump supporters) see how Trump was wrongly convicted, and that’s the same thing that happened to my Joshy Boy!” Oh, she feels somewhat vindicated. Anna sees the court system as corrupt because it didn’t give her the results she wanted. She thinks she’s some kind of expert because she attended her headship’s trial for x number of days and she talked to lawyers. I’m sure Josh’s attorneys told her everything she wanted to hear while they were cashing JB’s checks for Josh’s defense. Ka-ching!

Yeah I think she is undereducated, sticks to learning only news that supports her views, believes what she's told, and of course has an automatic disdain for the courts because her husband got convicted despite managing to convince her he was innocent.  She posts from a very naive, uninformed perspective. 

On 6/4/2024 at 4:47 PM, Pammy said:

I'm very curious about this perspective, which (to an outsider) seems a little too catastrophic to be realistic. Can you help me understand?

From my perspective, he was president of your country for years, and other than mismanagement of the pandemic and his impact on the supreme court (which were huge) there was no other significant national-level harm. I would grant that if there is another significant world event during a future term of his, he would probably mismanage it badly and people would pay the price... but if there's neither a war nor a pandemic nor a collapse of society: isn't he quite likely to just sit around and bask in the glory of his position, behaving, legislatively, like any other member of his party?

Why do so many people think that if he gets another term he will be able to successfully change so much of your country's basic legal structure and identity? What has changed so much since his last term? Is the nature of democracy in the USA so fragile/unprotected? (Does the president actually have the power to just rewrite laws about the future of voting etc?) Is there no expectation that the UN, at least, would intervene if the USA began to turn totalitarian?

I find the rhetoric of 'the other candidate is the end of the world' often leads to an unnecessarily extreme position. If that's not the case here, maybe help me understand why not.

Once thing I've not heard mention as an explanation to this is the fact it would be his second term. If you look at our presidents, those that served two terms ALWAYS get tons more accomplished in their second term. The first term is partly figuring things out and laying the groundwork (supreme court justices, for example) and assembling a team - but they are also trying to make sure they are re-elected. There is no re-election after a second term, that's it, they're done. So that concern is gone.

A second term means no real need to compromise, or soften things, or be careful about not alienating voters, since they can't run again for president. Trump's first term, he had no intention of winning and no plan, and no idea what to even do. He did not have most Republican politicians firmly on his side, yet, many of them were opposed to him at first until he managed to get them in a stronghold. But now? His bootlickers are loud and disruptive, he wouldn't have to worry about alienating his base, and he'll feel free to do whatever he feels like doing. Or that his handlers tell him to do. 

So I don't think it's unrealistic to be concerned. He's already said he wants to be a dictator. People around him already have plans in place to destroy democracy. I would hope that the UN would intervene, but really I don't much know what they'd manage. But the president is the commander in chief of the most powerful best funded most well armed military on earth. If they follow his rule, and he buddies up to Putin and calls in China to help out lest they meet his wrath, what's the UN going to do?

Honestly I don't think he's cognitively able to do anything too catastrophic on a worldwide level, but some of the people using him as a puppet might be, and he can certainly screw up the US for many decades to come if he becomes president. 

 

On 6/6/2024 at 1:47 AM, noseybutt said:

Meh. The point is that Trump supporters do NOT outnumber the anti-Trump people. Clinton won the popular vote, Trump lost, yet we still got him for president. Most of us would cheerfully accept rule by the majority. The anger is that this is rule by a minority. Trump is likely to win again in 2024 under similar circumstances.

I hope hope hope he does not win under any circumstances. But yes, the system here is set up to allow the minority to rule the majority which is backward and ridiculous. And the minority (the ones on top, anyway) realize this and want to keep their rule in any way possible. I'd be happy with popular vote deciding the president, and majority rule being the standard. It has problems, certainly, but would be far better than the way things are now.

On 6/7/2024 at 1:26 PM, GuineaPigCourtship said:

Obviously it was because it wasn't the RIGHT religion. /s

This. They want theocracy, but it has to be THEIR theocracy. 

I think if a Christian thocracy was to happen, things would start to break down quickly, though. Once they'd imposed their rules on other religions, the infighting would start up in earnest. The farther out there versions of Christianity would be squeezed out first (Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. probably followed by protestant vs catholic) and then they'd start in on the picky differences. Because nobody can agree on what a "true Christian" actually is.

Even within the Duggars, they don't all agree on what the rules should be. Imagine that on a national scale!

[Smee]

On 6/10/2024 at 11:40 PM, Meggo said:

And it's worse now - because he's doubled down on the insanity. He's a convicted felon. Legally he cannot travel to a LOT of other countries. We're going to give THIS guy the codes? And his supporters have ... I don't understand people. I don't understand how he is god to a lot of them. THIS guy? If you're so religious - remember the commandments and thou shalt have no god before me. This convicted FELON is not the second coming. Yes - Jesus was persecuted - but THIS guy? The one who paid off a pron star after cheating on his THIRD wife with her? Like - come on... how can they be this dense.

I know I'm invoking Godwin's law here, but Hitler was a convicted felon when he rose to power via the vote of the people. Tough economic environment, sense of outside persecution, social and technological change that scares people - all these do have a tendency to push some people towards an authoritarian 'strong man' figure who promises to rescue them. On the weekend my minister mentioned this when he was preaching about the part in Samuel where the Israelites ask for a king and Samuel warns them that he will exert power over them, not for them, and they say they don't care and they want a king anyway.

[libgirl2]

12 hours ago, Smee said:

I know I'm invoking Godwin's law here, but Hitler was a convicted felon when he rose to power via the vote of the people. Tough economic environment, sense of outside persecution, social and technological change that scares people - all these do have a tendency to push some people towards an authoritarian 'strong man' figure who promises to rescue them. On the weekend my minister mentioned this when he was preaching about the part in Samuel where the Israelites ask for a king and Samuel warns them that he will exert power over them, not for them, and they say they don't care and they want a king anyway.

I have read enough comments to concur, people don't seem to mind wanting a dictator. 

[Giraffe]

2 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

I have read enough comments to concur, people don't seem to mind wanting a dictator. 

Not at all. Because he's their dictator. They only have a problem if it were a different dictator. (The cognitive dissonance is astounding)

[Father Son Holy Goat]

So… anything new for J is for Jailbird? 

[marmalade]

1 hour ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

So… anything new for J is for Jailbird? 

Nope. We're waiting for the Supremes to rule as to whether they will even hear the case. It was just submitted in late May, so it may be a while.

[Johannah]

For people who prattle on about liberty and ‘merica and soldiers dying for our “freedom,” these people either have very little respect or very little understanding of what democracy actually means, which is supposedly the bedrock of the country, and the one thing we could all previously agree on. 
 

Although an autocracy is not incompatible with fundie-ism. These are the same people who hold up the constitution as inerrant and the “founding fathers” as godlike. When you’re raised not to question authority, a trump-like figure and a theocratic government probably make more sense to you, which is fucking terrifying. I still don’t totally get how people can be drawn to Trump specifically, who is objectively a horrific immoral person who violates all supposedly Christian lifestyle principles, but the framework for the demise of democracy is there. 
 

It also terrifies me that so many people here and from liberal news sources seem to be discussing this as a given. Godwin’s law again, but it’s as though we’re all watching Hitler rise to power in real time while we just snack on popcorn. We are so unprepared to fight this. 
 

And I think the benefit of following fundies, besides the usual snarking, is that they are canaries in the coal mine. We’ve got advance notice. The fact that Anna is speaking out after prolonged silence to support a criminal presidential candidate! Josh’s own crimes aside, this is a woman who eats yellow angel pocket eggs and didn’t even know what sex was immediately prior to her own wedding. Clearly the piety of others is completely unimportant to these people. 
 

And politics aside, I had a hope while following Josh’s crimes and conviction that there must be a breaking point for Anna. That she was extra vulnerable with a newborn, but that she would get that baby old enough to receive occasional care from other family members, while she found reasons to slowly start taking nursing school classes one at a time at the local community college (to be a blessing to others!) Abby had already paved the way.
 

Maybe that she’d even be bold enough to take advantage of JB and meech’s exhaustion and distraction and send the kids to public school (maybe as a ministry to the heathens) while she went to nursing school full time. That, in combination with a book, any book, even a stay in good graces with the Duggars book about how her faith was tested and strengthened, and she might actually have a viable exit plan and hope for some kind of a life and future for herself and her 7 children. 
 

Maybe it will still happen. But looking more doubtful as she is vocally doubling down for Trump and likely also smuggar. She might lack intelligence, or she’s been too deprived of any actual academic skills, or too brainwashed and abused to ever escape and recover. It’s tragic for her, but moreso for those children who are getting zero educational experiences and will be even more handicapped than she is. 

[Cam]

After Josh’s conviction on possession of csam, I wondered if his wife, Anna Duggar, mother of seven children, would see the egregious nature of her husband’s crimes. But I think it was that Christmas when she made a social media post about “there’s more to the story” that I decided she’s a hopeless case. You hear how some criminals become institutionalized after being incarcerated too long, or psychiatric patients becoming institutionalized after too long in a psych ward. But in Anna’s case, I think she’s been infantilized too long. She likes her environment. It’s warm and cozy. She surrounds herself with others who accept her and her situation. She lives in a bubble, and always will.

As for democracy, what about the popular vote? Some argue that the U.S. is hobbled by the electoral college. Because of it, Trump lost the popular vote in 2016 but won the election. 

Then you have Republicans who are massively guilty of strategic voter suppression and gerrymandering. It is rampant and it is relentless. It’s like it’s their only way to win elections, they know it, so they do it ruthlessly. The Democratic votes to win may be, are probably out there, but Republicans do all they can to thwart these casting of ballots. They care not for the right to vote in this country. They want power and will do all they can to get it.
 

 

Edited June 17 by Cam

[MariaariaM]

23 minutes ago, Cam said:

After Josh’s conviction on possession of csam, I wondered if his wife, Anna Duggar, mother of seven children, would see the egregious nature of her husband’s crimes.

She may or may not have had the genetic predisposition for average (or above) intelligence but with not only no intellectual stimulation ever but active suppression of whatever potential she may have had for all of her life I think it's safe to assume that at this point she has no thoughts of her own. She looks either terrified or dazed in most of the pictures I've ever seen of her (and smug in the tiny fraction left over) and anxiety further limits our ability to think free, creative thoughts. I honestly think she may be literally incapable of considering leaving.

 

Edited to add: I'd love for her to prove me wrong though!

Edited June 17 by MariaariaM

[Alisamer]

23 hours ago, MariaariaM said:

She may or may not have had the genetic predisposition for average (or above) intelligence but with not only no intellectual stimulation ever but active suppression of whatever potential she may have had for all of her life I think it's safe to assume that at this point she has no thoughts of her own. She looks either terrified or dazed in most of the pictures I've ever seen of her (and smug in the tiny fraction left over) and anxiety further limits our ability to think free, creative thoughts. I honestly think she may be literally incapable of considering leaving.

 

Edited to add: I'd love for her to prove me wrong though!

I do think it's good to remember that we are, for the most part, thinking people here. People raised with decent educations and who have been encouraged to think and ask questions, who are used to problem solving. Anna, and many of the fundie children here (as well as a decent number of other Republican voters, apparently), weren't. They were poorly homeschooled or christian schooled with an emphasis on religion over all else, especially over common sense. Thinking for yourself is discouraged, asking questions is scary and potentially sinful, and the whole focus of life is basically to stay in God's good graces so you don't burn in hell for all eternity. They are actively discouraged from mental development and wide breadth of learning, so those raised like that are stunted.

So Anna has been taught that her duty is to be a wife and mother, and that divorce is sinful, and that the husband is the head of the family over the wife and she is to submit to him. That's reality to her. We look at that and are like "what the actual heck, he's proven he shouldn't be the head of anything and that he's potentially dangerous!" She looks at it as God (or Satan, or God using Satan maybe...) testing her faith. God gave her this husband. Divorcing him will send her to hell. Not submitting to him will send her to hell. Questioning whether he's the right person for her is questioning God's authority, and will send her to hell. No matter how hellish her life might be, actual hell is worse, to her, and if she disobeys him (and therefore God) she may well end up there. And maybe Josh might piss off God and end up in hell, but that's on him. Her job is to keep herself (and her kids, as much as possible) on God's good side. 

Their faith is based on the fear of hell. They might say otherwise, but when it comes down to it, it's the fear of hell that keeps many of them stuck where they are. Josh clearly doesn't have the same fear the others do, and takes advantage of that. But I think Anna believes and is terrified (on top of being beholden to JimBob and having a zillion kids) and not only can't imagine leaving, she can't imagine thinking of leaving. And if she does have a flash of thought like that, it's terrifying and must be prayed away. 

[Pleiades_06]

Although I agree Anna is brainwashed and woefully uneducated, I just want to push back a little and say top education doesn’t necessarily make you more able to make good choices. If that were true, events like the Holocaust and slavery in the US wouldn’t have happened. 
People like the Duggars choose  Trump because they think he will protect their power in the caste system of America. And although Anna doesn’t have a lot of outright power, she’s benefitted from being around people who do.

[Bassett Lady]

I am able to feel sorry for the inadequate education and moral training she received and be disappointed that as an adult she is not taking the steps necessary to protect herself and her children. 
 

Horrible things were done to her, without question. However, she is responsible for protecting those children. For the moment, he is incarcerated and away from all minors. 
 

When he is released from prison, then it will be up to her to protect those kids. 

[Cam]

Agree with all these comments about Anna. I am hopeful that Jill and Jinger’s books (and their life choices) have some influence on their younger sisters, brothers, other young fundie women and girls, and perhaps their sisters-in-laws, that they can move beyond the IBLP status quo set forth by JB and Michele. With the latest photos out there of one of them boys full-frontal hugging his girlfriend who’s wearing a spaghetti-strapped sun dress on the beach, it may be an outward sign that some things may be changing. Imo, tho, Anna is a lost cause.

 

In the world of politics, religion and hypocrisy, the headlines today:

“Megachurch pastor and ex-Trump adviser admits child sexual abuse
Robert Morris, of Gateway church in Dallas, accused of sexual abuse of girl in 1980s, beginning when she was 12”

“MAGA pastor’s sexual abuse scandal underscores the right’s hypocrisy on LGBTQ people”

Robert Morris has resigned. Links for both articles:

Spoiler

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jun/17/pastor-robert-morris-sexual-abuse-trump-adviser
 

https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reidout-blog/robert-morris-abuse-gateway-church-trump-rcna157593

 The final paragraph of one article states:

“Despite lacking evidence, Trump and his followers would have you believe that perhaps the greatest threats to human decency — and children’s innocence, in particular — are drag performers or LGBTQ people as a whole.

But too often, it’s right-wing Christian men who are the ones being exposed as a true danger.”

Edited June 18 by Cam

[MariaariaM]

10 hours ago, Alisamer said:

No matter how hellish her life might be, actual hell is worse, to her, and if she disobeys him (and therefore God) she may well end up there.

And if her life feels worse than hell at some point she at least has hope that it will end at some point. Hell is for eternity, little birds flying across the gslaxy and all that.

10 hours ago, Bassett Lady said:

I am able to feel sorry for the inadequate education and moral training she received and be disappointed that as an adult she is not taking the steps necessary to protect herself and her children. 

Oh, I'm not saying it's right that she's still married to this horrible, dangerous person despite having 7 kids to protect. It's awful. I'm just not surprised. And if I were a judge in a weird story where these things were illegal I would be lenient with her because I don't see it as fully her fault that she isn't leaving. And then since we're already in an alternative reality where I can do that stuff I'd find a construction where Anna could not be the one to vouch for Josh and a court-appointed official would always have to be present if he was in the same building as one of the kids, regardless of age. I think he has enough of a track record to say he'll abuse anyone, of any age and possibly of any gender, as long as he thinks he can get away with. Including Anna. Because he's a sadistic piece of shit first and foremost.

[Mama Mia]

I don’t give Anna that much slack regarding her beliefs and education because she has several siblings who have stepped out of the super fundie box and are doing just fine and are accepted by her family. A sister who had a child out of wedlock!  and was still embraced and accepted by her parents. And two siblings (I think) who divorced - presumably for much more mundane reasons than Anna has. While I believe there have been periods of conflict over beliefs, the entire family seems to get along with the parents. So almost half of their children haven’t followed a strict fundie fire and brimstone path.  Anna knows there are options. Her belief in the fear of hell might be strong, but even in her fear based world there are only a few who wouldn’t give her a pass if she chose to leave Josh. She chooses instead to publicly defend him. And this isn’t a one time occurrence where she could reasonably claim he convinced her of his innocence and/or reform. She’s just personally dug in deep. 

[SassyPants]

I think the fact that Anna has no education, work history or means of support, and 8 mouths to feed, house and clothe likely reinforces her belief system as the right way to manage her situation. None of Anna’s siblings were dealing with her exact situation. I could see Anna being overwhelmed with her circumstances and defaulting to what’s easiest in the moment. Where she crosses the line and deserves blowback is publicly posting her views on the www-

[Alisamer]

Yeah I think Anna can be terrified of hell, brainwashed, and also STUCK due to her situation with too many kids, an incarcerated deadbeat husband it's sinful to divorce, a somewhat wealthy father in law who would drop her in a second (while probably trying to take away her kids) if she so much as hinted at considering leaving or speaking out against Josh, and her own stubbornness as well, most likely. 

I think all those things are true, at the same time. She knows she has siblings who aren't toeing the line, and her parents don't shun them (though who knows if they loudly pray for them to get saved again or lament they'll go to hell or even say they're spending time with them now since they won't see them in heaven). She also knows right now she's being fed and housed by JimBob who can and will pull that support if he feels slighted. She knows her husband is a creep. She also refuses to believe that because God sent him to her. Contradictory? Sure. Lots of things in religion are. 

I think she's likely afraid of hell and afraid of questioning and afraid of slighting JB and afraid that her life is somehow easier without Josh and afraid of what will happen when he gets out. I think she's also doubled down and holier than thou and smug and self righteous. 

I think when it comes time for Josh to get released is when things will come to a head for Anna. Right now she's got small children and is living on her father in law's charity and Josh is safely put away so she doesn't have to think about that. Assuming he serves his full sentence, she'll have all the kids to the point they don't have to be monitored every second, her oldest kids will be adults or nearly so, and she'll have just a little more time to think. Whether she wants to think or not. 

I don't like Anna. I think she's stuck up and smug and maybe a little dim - whether that's natural or from having any hint of thought stamped out preventing her brain from properly developing who knows. She's certainly self-righteous and publically supporting her pedo husband. But I also think she's probably really also afraid and overwhelmed and in an impossible situation all while having the world media plus all us snarkers watching and critiquing her. I hope she'll someday come to her senses, but I kind of doubt it, and if it happens it won't be until circumstances force her to take a hard look at her situation. 

I do think it's worth considering that it's possible many of these second and third generation fundie kids might actually be cognitively delayed in some ways simply due to them not getting proper education/support/play/etc. when they are very young. I mean, blanket training beating out any inquisitiveness or initiative before they can even walk? Extreme limits to their exposure to media and other people who aren't theological clones of their parents? Being taught fear of hell from the time they were born? 

I don't mean fundie lite, or those on the fringes, or even ALL the kids of the extreme fundies. But the fundie kids of the extremely restrictive ones who were born and raised during their parents most restrictive and strict phase of cult indoctrination. 

I feel like that's got to be damaging. Not an excuse, by any means, especiallly for Anna supporting and defending the pedo she got married off to. But still, if there was an ethical way to do it, it'd be an interesting experiment to see how their restrictive upbringing affected them. Was their potential actually limited? How much? Is their thinking and are their brain pathways simpler than average? Is that something that can be improved later? 

It's fascinating to think about, IMO.

[GuineaPigCourtship]

I think it's certainly possible to believe Anna is incapable of leaving due to her upbringing and beliefs (and maybe even have some limited sympathy about it) while still believing she is absolutely wrong in staying married to Josh.  I'll agree it's a tough situation to be in, but as a mother she should be fighting to protect those kids from him instead of to expose them to him more.

[noseybutt]

Also, not leaving a man convicted of watching CSA or any other sex crime is not strictly a fundie issue. I do think the fundie hobbling and teachings make it more likely the wives will stay, but staying with convicted men happens across the economic and cultural spectrum. It’s wild.

[snickerz]

Saw on Reddit that Anna has started a business. It appears to be a dog breeding business. 

Spoiler

 

[Giraffe]

24 minutes ago, snickerz said:

Saw on Reddit that Anna has started a business. It appears to be a dog breeding business. 

  Hide contents

 

Oh FFS! The last thing this world needs is another dog breeder! I'd be shocked if she's doing it humanely with the best interest of the dogs in mind. 

Edited Friday at 01:07 AM by Giraffe

[Howl]

On 6/17/2024 at 12:50 PM, Cam said:

After Josh’s conviction on possession of csam, I wondered if his wife, Anna Duggar, mother of seven children, would see the egregious nature of her husband’s crimes. But I think it was that Christmas when she made a social media post about “there’s more to the story” that I decided she’s a hopeless case.

Important to remember that this is Anna's 2nd time around a big Josh sex scandal.   Earlier there was the Ashley Madison/running around with prostitutes phase and Josh got sent off to IBLP reform school.  It was a huge fall from grace; Josh was a lobbyist in DC and they got recalled back to Podunk, Arkansas. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

I have so many questions about Anna’s dog breeding business. 

• Did the dogs court before breeding?
• Did the dogs reframe from impure thoughts during the courtship?
• Did the dogs dress modestly?
• Follow up, how do dogs use the bathroom when dressed modestly?
• Are all the dogs married before the eyes of God?
• If the dogs breed without being married are they shamed? 
• Do the dogs have covenant marriages? 
• Do the dogs agree to leave their family size up to God?
• Will the puppies all have J names or M names?
• Do puppies get blanket trained instead of obedience training?
• Will the older puppies take care of the younger puppies with some kind of buddy system?
• Will the puppies be encouraged to marry only other Anna bred puppies?
• Will Anna buy 20 acres and all her puppies be encouraged to build dog houses on property?
• With Josh away who will be the puppy’s headship? 
   

And finally, assuming the answers to all my questions are no, it’s ridiculous to treat dogs that way, why do you subscribe to a belief system that would treat your children worse than you would a dog? 

Edited Friday at 02:35 AM by Father Son Holy Goat
I thought of a few more.

[Bassett Lady]

There are already several of the “100 worst puppy mills” in their area, according to the Humane Society. 

I wonder if other Puppy Mill purveyors are advising her on how to maximize her profits. 
 

Does anyone recognize the names on this list? Are any of them part of their fundy cartel?