Jana and Stephen 17: Married August 15

[Mama Mia]

8 hours ago, Smash! said:

It could very well be that Josie has neurological issues based on being born as micro preemie. Who knows if she received appropriate medical care if she had issues (which is speculation). If this is the case, her parents failed her even more than her neurotypical siblings.

She could also just be a kid who is goofy and easily distracted in crowds and has a hard time sitting/standing  still. That isn’t any better or worse than being a shy introvert who doesn’t like to be in the spotlight. Just neither type is going to do particularly well participating in a huge wedding. 

 

 

[just_ordinary]

I don’t think family size is a good indication if people are Quiverfull or not. I am sure all but Jill and Jinger (as they have said or indicated that they do prevent) are leaving the size of their families up to God. And I am of firm belief the women feel that they have to happily go along with their husbands urges as well as ttc basically all the time. White Christian arrows don’t come from nothing. But this doesn’t equal mega families. Very few women can conceive as regularly and go to term as Michelle and Kelly did. There are many factors that will prevent this. Even if you don’t breastfeed at all, it is very possible your period won’t come back after 3 month. Those two couples are special as they seem to be „active“ as much as possible. I don’t think many couples are like this for 20+ years. Constantly. That’s not even factoring in any medical issues preventing them from getting pregnant or going to term. JB&M and G&K are outlier even in their own community. Most Quiverfull families still only have a range between 5-10 if iIrc. You can have only one child and still subscribe to a hardcore Quiverfull mindset.

In the end, I don’t know if the number aspect of the Quiverfull idea is even the biggest problem, as only few will successfully breed like rabbits. But the theocratic, abusive and racist parts irk me much more. Having 10+ children is just the tiny tip of the iceberg.

I can absolutely see Jana and Stephen being Quiverfull. But their age and lifestyle will prevent 15+ children.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I would guess they have been working on that house for awhile now. I say that because Stephen bought the house in 2023. So he’s had it for awhile. And he and Jana have been together for at least months before the wedding knowing they would be getting married. So Jana has probably been visiting Nebraska at times doing house stuff together. I bet she was happy to spend a long weekend at the New house demoing, painting, and lawn clean up. 

[Mama Mia]

13 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

I don’t think family size is a good indication if people are Quiverfull or not. I am sure all but Jill and Jinger (as they have said or indicated that they do prevent) are leaving the size of their families up to God. And I am of firm belief the women feel that they have to happily go along with their husbands urges as well as ttc basically all the time. White Christian arrows don’t come from nothing. But this doesn’t equal mega families. Very few women can conceive as regularly and go to term as Michelle and Kelly did. There are many factors that will prevent this. Even if you don’t breastfeed at all, it is very possible your period won’t come back after 3 month. Those two couples are special as they seem to be „active“ as much as possible. I don’t think many couples are like this for 20+ years. Constantly. That’s not even factoring in any medical issues preventing them from getting pregnant or going to term. JB&M and G&K are outlier even in their own community. Most Quiverfull families still only have a range between 5-10 if iIrc. You can have only one child and still subscribe to a hardcore Quiverfull mindset.

In the end, I don’t know if the number aspect of the Quiverfull idea is even the biggest problem, as only few will successfully breed like rabbits. But the theocratic, abusive and racist parts irk me much more. Having 10+ children is just the tiny tip of the iceberg.

I can absolutely see Jana and Stephen being Quiverfull. But their age and lifestyle will prevent 15+ children.

All of the married sisters have publicly stated they purposefully space their pregnancies and will have a point where they feel their family is complete. None of them are quiverfull or as many as God allows.
 

 Agree that even if they were it’s highly unlikely many of them would reach the mega family numbers of their parents. 

[NachosFlandersStyle]

Derick needs to hem his pants. Or buy a different inseam, I guess.

Re: family size: I've had an assload of people tell me that their very catholic parent or grandparent was one of 10,11, or 12 kids. I can't think of someone mentioning a higher number. Twelve seems to be an upper limit for most families in that position. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

1 hour ago, just_ordinary said:

I don’t think family size is a good indication if people are Quiverfull or not. I am sure all but Jill and Jinger (as they have said or indicated that they do prevent) are leaving the size of their families up to God. And I am of firm belief the women feel that they have to happily go along with their husbands urges as well as ttc basically all the time. White Christian arrows don’t come from nothing. But this doesn’t equal mega families. Very few women can conceive as regularly and go to term as Michelle and Kelly did. There are many factors that will prevent this. Even if you don’t breastfeed at all, it is very possible your period won’t come back after 3 month. Those two couples are special as they seem to be „active“ as much as possible. I don’t think many couples are like this for 20+ years. Constantly. That’s not even factoring in any medical issues preventing them from getting pregnant or going to term. JB&M and G&K are outlier even in their own community. Most Quiverfull families still only have a range between 5-10 if iIrc. You can have only one child and still subscribe to a hardcore Quiverfull mindset.

In the end, I don’t know if the number aspect of the Quiverfull idea is even the biggest problem, as only few will successfully breed like rabbits. But the theocratic, abusive and racist parts irk me much more. Having 10+ children is just the tiny tip of the iceberg.

I can absolutely see Jana and Stephen being Quiverfull. But their age and lifestyle will prevent 15+ children.

Quiverfull is also extremely misogynistic. It doesn't factor in things like women's health, especially their mental health. 

[Meggo]

3 hours ago, CanadianMamam said:

my mom is one of 8. So I grew up in that larger family with a lot of cousins. It gets complicated with holidays and guest lists for sure. And my aunts and uncles all had smaller families.

I also have nieces and nephews who are just are about 10 years younger than me. So I said "PLEASE don't call me Aunt Meggo" - if I can go to the bar and drink with you- don't have to call me aunt anymore.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

On 8/20/2024 at 12:54 AM, fish_ca said:

A photo of the whole family. Jill and Derrick are also there.

Good picture for so large a group. Why are some kids shown and some covered?

[QuiverFullofBooks]

Just now, IReallyAmHopewell said:

Good picture for so large a group. Why are some kids shown and some covered?

Because Jinger and Josiah don’t post their children’s faces online.

[Vivi_music]

20 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

Jill answers in the comments that she doesn’t know why she was not asked to be a bridesmaid (it’s up to the couple), that their kids only went to pre-wedding activities (they liked going childcare and space was tight) and that she of course would not miss the wedding.

She did not have to answer all those comments but I can imagine she is also annoyed by the speculations.

I think it's weird that people assume there are zero contact between Jill and her family. I'm pretty sure her relationship with JB is strained. And maybe Jill is not as close ''emotionally'' to some of her siblings, at least not as before.

But we've had proof that they are not completely estranged. Jill has helped Jessa when she labored at home from what I can remember, James seems to be close to her and still visiting a lot, she was seen at Joy's (right?) when Gunnar was born, and she seems to still want a connection with Michelle. Didn't Michelle help out after Freddie was born and Jill had her gallbladder removed?

We know Jill has been critical about how she was raised and I think she did feel betrayed by her dad. I'm sure some people in the family didn't like how she did it, but sometimes when conflict like this happens, well people make amends and try to have a relationship, maybe a less close one but still a relationship. I also don't think Jill wants to cut all ties with her family. I'm sure Jill has some boundaries but there is a difference with healthy family boundaries and not being invited (or not going) to an important life event like a sibling's wedding.

[SassyPants]

19 minutes ago, Vivi_music said:

I think it's weird that people assume there are zero contact between Jill and her family. I'm pretty sure her relationship with JB is strained. And maybe Jill is not as close ''emotionally'' to some of her siblings, at least not as before.

But we've had proof that they are not completely estranged. Jill has helped Jessa when she labored at home from what I can remember, James seems to be close to her and still visiting a lot, she was seen at Joy's (right?) when Gunnar was born, and she seems to still want a connection with Michelle. Didn't Michelle help out after Freddie was born and Jill had her gallbladder removed?

We know Jill has been critical about how she was raised and I think she did feel betrayed by her dad. I'm sure some people in the family didn't like how she did it, but sometimes when conflict like this happens, well people make amends and try to have a relationship, maybe a less close one but still a relationship. I also don't think Jill wants to cut all ties with her family. I'm sure Jill has some boundaries but there is a difference with healthy family boundaries and not being invited (or not going) to an important life event like a sibling's wedding.

The last time Jessa labored at home was with Ivy, and IIRC, Ivy turned 5 in May. In a more recent podcast interview (since the release of their book) Jill has said that she doesn’t really see her dad, but her mom does bring by gifts for the boys on their birthdays. She and her mom do occasionally text. I think she does text with Jinger. It is probably easier with Jinger because Jinger has also challenged some of her parents’ beliefs, has written a couple of books detailing the not so positive aspects of Gothardism and also lives far from JB’s wrath.

[JDuggs]

21 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

Jill answers in the comments that she doesn’t know why she was not asked to be a bridesmaid (it’s up to the couple), that their kids only went to pre-wedding activities (they liked going childcare and space was tight) and that she of course would not miss the wedding.

I was hoping that not being included as a bridesmaid was Jill’s choice, but now we know that it was Jana’s decision and Jana didn’t discuss it with Jill. I still think the classier move would have been for Jana to suck it up and include Jill instead of Jordyn, even if Jana and Jill aren’t close. I think Jana was sending a message that she doesn’t support Jill at all. Jill handled it all with grace, but I bet she felt hurt by the situation.

[just_ordinary]

@JDuggs I disagree. No one should have to suck it up and give someone an important role in their wedding just because. Bridesmaids are a big thing in the US (which I personally find pretty crazy and overdone but not my wedding so my opinion doesn’t count). If she disapproves with Jill’s decisions, if their relationship is strained it would be hypocritical to act otherwise. Jill and her family were still invited.

I hope Jana selected exactly the people she wanted and that there hadn’t been explicit or implicit pressure from JB to exclude Jill. It’s just sad that Jill didn’t have the same chance at her own wedding. 

[Vivi_music]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

The last time Jessa labored at home was with Ivy, and IIRC, Ivy turned 5 in May. In a more recent podcast interview (since the release of their book) Jill has said that she doesn’t really see her dad, but her mom does bring by gifts for the boys on their birthdays. She and her mom do occasionally text. I think she does text with Jinger. It is probably easier with Jinger because Jinger has also challenged some of her parents’ beliefs, has written a couple of books detailing the not so positive aspects of Gothardism and also lives far from JB’s wrath.

I mean, I don't remember all time-lines, my point was simply that there are proof that Jill is not estranged completely from her family (or some members of her family).

I bet her relationship with Michelle is probably more shallow than before, not talking about deep values and beliefs, but I understand wanting to keep a certain relationship with your Mom. Even if you are critical of your own mom's choices as a parent, I bet there's still some love there, in a weird way. A lot of online snarkers seem to believe Jill is now completely persona non-grata with all the Duggar clan and clearly it isn't the case.

[molecule]

Idle speculation. ..I wondered if Jill might be pregnant and didn't want to commit in case she experienced complications again. 

[Mama Mia]

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

The last time Jessa labored at home was with Ivy, and IIRC, Ivy turned 5 in May. In a more recent podcast interview (since the release of their book) Jill has said that she doesn’t really see her dad, but her mom does bring by gifts for the boys on their birthdays. She and her mom do occasionally text. I think she does text with Jinger. It is probably easier with Jinger because Jinger has also challenged some of her parents’ beliefs, has written a couple of books detailing the not so positive aspects of Gothardism and also lives far from JB’s wrath.

Jessa also went to Jill’s baby shower for her youngest. Jill and Derrick were both spotted at the Family house at a Christmas party (which sure seems like it would be awkward af - it was close to when the book came out) . She’s been seen at a family party at Joy’s. Her mom went by and helped out after she had her last baby. It looks like her whole family went to the funeral for the baby she recently lost.  While I can’t imagine it wouldn’t be weird and awkward and bring up a bunch of drama when a sibling writes a book unveiling some family conflict - Jill not being a bridesmaid might be completely unrelated. 

Jana has gone to visit Jinger in California several times. She and Jessa work on renovation projects together. She spent a couple years trying to mold Joy into a sister mom. Hannie and Jordyn both shared a house and room! with her until recently (and are still a stone throw away)

While we think of all the sisters in relationship to each other growing up- or having adjoining show segments - in reality Jill hasn’t lived with Jana for an entire decade. They’ve had very different lives, even if they weren’t fundie or famous or had a bunch of drama - they just might not have stayed close friends. I’m sure they love and care for each other, but they just might not be each other’s 1st (or 6th) choice of best friends to hang out with. That’s totally normal. Also, Jill had very recently lost her baby, and was clearly grieving. Jana just might not have wanted to ask her to add all the wedding stuff to her plate. 
 

TL/DR - Their complicated  family situation and beliefs might have been why Jill wasn’t a Bridesmaid - or maybe it was just normal reasons that would apply to anyone. 
 

 

[Kiki03910]

1 hour ago, Mama Mia said:

Jessa also went to Jill’s baby shower for her youngest. Jill and Derrick were both spotted at the Family house at a Christmas party (which sure seems like it would be awkward af - it was close to when the book came out) . She’s been seen at a family party at Joy’s. Her mom went by and helped out after she had her last baby. It looks like her whole family went to the funeral for the baby she recently lost.  While I can’t imagine it wouldn’t be weird and awkward and bring up a bunch of drama when a sibling writes a book unveiling some family conflict - Jill not being a bridesmaid might be completely unrelated. 

Jana has gone to visit Jinger in California several times. She and Jessa work on renovation projects together. She spent a couple years trying to mold Joy into a sister mom. Hannie and Jordyn both shared a house and room! with her until recently (and are still a stone throw away)

While we think of all the sisters in relationship to each other growing up- or having adjoining show segments - in reality Jill hasn’t lived with Jana for an entire decade. They’ve had very different lives, even if they weren’t fundie or famous or had a bunch of drama - they just might not have stayed close friends. I’m sure they love and care for each other, but they just might not be each other’s 1st (or 6th) choice of best friends to hang out with. That’s totally normal. Also, Jill had very recently lost her baby, and was clearly grieving. Jana just might not have wanted to ask her to add all the wedding stuff to her plate. 
 

TL/DR - Their complicated  family situation and beliefs might have been why Jill wasn’t a Bridesmaid - or maybe it was just normal reasons that would apply to anyone. 
 

 

This is a very thoughtful and empathetic analysis. Thank you. At the end of the day, I'm horrified by Quiverful and fundie beliefs, but I also want these abused daughters to have peace and love the same as I want any human being (or animal!) to not suffer. I wish good for people. If only this were universal.

/but I'm still intolerant of the intolerant

[KnittingOwl]

Jill was originally due in August, so she could have been heavily pregnant or have just given birth at the time of Jana’s wedding. Maybe that’s why she wasn’t included as a bridesmaid 

[Throw]

18 minutes ago, KnittingOwl said:

Jill was originally due in August, so she could have been heavily pregnant or have just given birth at the time of Jana’s wedding. Maybe that’s why she wasn’t included as a bridesmaid 

Jill lost her daughter in April, Jana only got engaged in June 

[Giraffe]

Someone up thread sleculated that JB paid for the wedding and probably stipulated that Jana couldn't include Jill in her wedding. My guess is it's either that or Jana assumed Jill wouldn't want to because of Isla's death still being so recent. 

[Meggo]

7 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

@JDuggs I disagree. No one should have to suck it up and give someone an important role in their wedding just because. Bridesmaids are a big thing in the US (which I personally find pretty crazy and overdone but not my wedding so my opinion doesn’t count). If she disapproves with Jill’s decisions, if their relationship is strained it would be hypocritical to act otherwise. Jill and her family were still invited.

I hope Jana selected exactly the people she wanted and that there hadn’t been explicit or implicit pressure from JB to exclude Jill. It’s just sad that Jill didn’t have the same chance at her own wedding. 

I kind of felt forced into having one of my sisters in my wedding party and I still regret it. I have two sisters, and at the time - also had two besties. Both besties were in the party - even though one gave birth like - 3 weeks prior. And one sister was my maid of honor because she is one of my best friends. 
The other one? Is my sister. And if she wasn't my sister - I would have nothing to do with her because she's selfish among other things. I don't recommend having someone in your party because you have to. Ugh. She was the worst. Her behavior was poor (and I wasn't expecting much) and she even stopped me in the hall after the wedding - while I was carrying all my stuff to our room (mine & Hubs) to tell me she didn't think I wanted her there etc. Like okay - but - is this the time for that conversation? really? Ugh. 

[Four is Enough]

16 hours ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

Re: family size: I've had an assload of people tell me that their very catholic parent or grandparent was one of 10,11, or 12 kids. I can't think of someone mentioning a higher number. Twelve seems to be an upper limit for most families in that position. 

My next door neighbor was one of seventeen. He and his wife had three.

6 hours ago, molecule said:

Idle speculation. ..I wondered if Jill might be pregnant and didn't want to commit in case she experienced complications again. 

I thought she looked pregnant, but I didn't want to say anything..

[JermajestyDuggar]

I think Jill is likely closer to some siblings than others. I bet she’s not close with Jana anymore. Jill hasn’t lived in the house for a decade. She isn’t forced to be close with Jana. They could have grown apart. 

[EmiSue]

2 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

 

I thought she looked pregnant, but I didn't want to say anything..

If Jill's pregnant she's just weeks in because Isla died in April. It's probably just the dress plus any baby weight she didn't lose in the spring.

[postscript]

57 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think Jill is likely closer to some siblings than others. I bet she’s not close with Jana anymore. Jill hasn’t lived in the house for a decade. She isn’t forced to be close with Jana. They could have grown apart. 

In a large family, the relationships shift over time. My mother was one of six. There were times when she had a closer relationship with one sibling, and times when siblings squabbled and didn’t speak for a while. There was one sister everyone talked to, so she kept them apprised of family news. However, when there was a family crisis, they always circled the wagons and hung together. 

Jill’s and Jana’s lives have gone in very different directions. They probably don’t talk that often, and I would have no expectation that Jana would ask Jill to be a bridesmaid, or that Jill would feel obligated to accept.