Oh the Duggars... don't even get me started..

[Constance Vigilance]

I'm not a big fan of Jim Bob and Michelle, but I find the Duggar kids interesting. That said, I find the tendency here to assume the worst about Jim Bob and Michelle's motivations to be more than just a little disturbing.

I think many of us find the way they are raising their children in a fucked-up abusive cult more than a little disturbing.

[bellicosebroad]

Count me in as one of those naive folks who thought the Duggars were quaint, nice, and charming if a little odd in the "14 Kids and Pregnant Again" (? not sure that's the exact title; it was so long ago...) special to now realizing just how twisted and selfish J&M are with the enslavement of the girls especially and the utter control they have over all the kids, boys included; I found you all because I was looking for info on just what Josiah did that was so awful re: the latest pregnancy announcement that he might actually be blamed for the miscarriage. Poor kid. I can see him and Jinger absconding when he reaches 18 and taking Hannie and Jackson with them. Wishful thinking.

I was a long time lurker (and one-time only poster) on TWOP and got summarily slapped by Howard for not playing by the rules -- gads, does that guy have any kind of a life? -- and, hey, life's too short to be worrying about some pompous ass on a forum when all I want is some good chat. So. :D

[hapamama]

Cult, yeah technically. Unnecessarily restrictive? Definitely. Abusive? Not really. You know, at least here in the United States, we have that whole freedom of religion thing that the Constitution guarantees us. The Duggars aren't breaking any laws. Their children are provided shelter, are loved, have access to health care, don't have to worry about where their next meal is coming from, have some semblance of an education and are clothed. No abuse or neglect there.

Most parents raise their children within some kind of religion... indoctrinating them in a similar manner as the the Duggars are indoctrinating their kids. Some parents choose to homeschool, some parents choose to send their kids to private schools, still others choose public schools. More indoctrination of another type...

Do I agree with the Duggar lifestyle? Heck no! But they're within their rights to live that way. That said, I hope that the Duggars who aren't happy with that lifestyle get a chance to get out as adults.

[bellicosebroad]

>That said, I find the tendency here to assume the worst about Jim Bob and Michelle's motivations to be more than just a little disturbing.

I don't think anyone here has a "tendency to assume." I think we've read enough about the Quiverfull movement to see what's going on and say, "Holy shit. Those poor kids." The thing is (and as I've seen others say), SuperWomb and JimBoob had regular lives, and made their choice to do this. (And yes, SW did too, even if she might not have known just what she was getting into; that said, by the looks of her and her "HappyLand" baby voice, she checked out long, long ago, so g'bye, independent thought.)

The kids were not given that chance to choose; they're just expected to do what JB says, period. The isolation of the lifestyle might have meant they didn't even know they *had* a choice. However, the very show that I think JB signed onto because of greed and because he wanted to showcase Gothardite fundy goodness to win converts may be the very thing that will let the kids who want to escape. Because of it, they haven't been *completely* isolated, and the kids who haven't drunk the Koolaid completely (Jinger, Josiah, and Joy, by the looks of it so far) may know that there's something else out there for them besides uber-patriarchal rule if they want it. I hope so.

[MaroonMandy]

Cult, yeah technically. Unnecessarily restrictive? Definitely. Abusive? Not really. You know, at least here in the United States, we have that whole freedom of religion thing that the Constitution guarantees us. The Duggars aren't breaking any laws. Their children are provided shelter, are loved, have access to health care, don't have to worry about where their next meal is coming from, have some semblance of an education and are clothed. No abuse or neglect there.

Most parents raise their children within some kind of religion... indoctrinating them in a similar manner as the the Duggars are indoctrinating their kids. Some parents choose to homeschool, some parents choose to send their kids to private schools, still others choose public schools. More indoctrination of another type...

Do I agree with the Duggar lifestyle? Heck no! But they're within their rights to live that way. That said, I hope that the Duggars who aren't happy with that lifestyle get a chance to get out as adults.

Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion and the Duggars are denying their children of that basic right. The kids have NO choice but to follow along with whatever Mommy and Daddy say because they've been so sheltered. I don't think that's what the founding fathers had in mind.

And this is coming from someone who was raised Southern Baptist, still attends Baptist church services (somewhat regularly) and has her bible on a stand next to her favorite comfy chair...

[bellicosebroad]

>Abusive? Not really. You know, at least here in the United States...

It's abuse. They use "To Train Up a Child" as one of their discipline "bibles." It's been in the news a lot lately because several fundy parents have literally abused their children to death following it. And I know that's extreme, but hell, when a *baby* gets blanket trained to be afraid of any self-expression or freedom at all, that's abuse.

[bellicosebroad]

Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion and the Duggars are denying their children of that basic right.

Ay-men, sistah!

[Witsec1]

>Abusive? Not really. You know, at least here in the United States...

It's abuse. They use "To Train Up a Child" as one of their discipline "bibles." It's been in the news a lot lately because several fundy parents have literally abused their children to death following it. And I know that's extreme, but hell, when a *baby* gets blanket trained to be afraid of any self-expression or freedom at all, that's abuse.

I think I love you already, bellicose broad!

[bellicosebroad]

I think I love you already, bellicose broad!

Aww, thank you! :)

[fakepigtails73]

>That said, I find the tendency here to assume the worst about Jim Bob and Michelle's motivations to be more than just a little disturbing.

I don't think anyone here has a "tendency to assume." I think we've read enough about the Quiverfull movement to see what's going on and say, "Holy shit. Those poor kids." The thing is (and as I've seen others say), SuperWomb and JimBoob had regular lives, and made their choice to do this. (And yes, SW did too, even if she might not have known just what she was getting into; that said, by the looks of her and her "HappyLand" baby voice, she checked out long, long ago, so g'bye, independent thought.)

The kids were not given that chance to choose; they're just expected to do what JB says, period. The isolation of the lifestyle might have meant they didn't even know they *had* a choice. However, the very show that I think JB signed onto because of greed and because he wanted to showcase Gothardite fundy goodness to win converts may be the very thing that will let the kids who want to escape. Because of it, they haven't been *completely* isolated, and the kids who haven't drunk the Koolaid completely (Jinger, Josiah, and Joy, by the looks of it so far) may know that there's something else out there for them besides uber-patriarchal rule if they want it. I hope so.

I would not have said it better myself!!

Besides, JB and M decided to put their family's life on TLC, so hey it's public so it's fine to criticize.

[TaterTotCasserole]

Somehow, in all of my lurking, I missed blanket training. I just googled it.

Holy Cow.

[Constance Vigilance]

Yup. Break 'em young.

[Witsec7]

Although the older girls state they are free to choose a lifestyle, its not an informed choice. All options besides their current lifestyle have been demonized. Its not like the Jslaves get a rumspringa.

[freejoytoo]

How could the girls even try to leave? The idea of leaving their parents has been demonised by Gothard and furthermore, they have very little skills to start out in real life - they have very little education and no life skills. It's disgusting - they were made into premature adults by raising their siblings from around the age of twelve yet are perpetually infantised by their family and religion and are made to feel helpless and guilty at the idea of leaving.

[fakepigtails73]

They could get in touch with Susannah Keller, one of Anna's sister who left Gothardism not long ago (I think she's in TX). Suze is now Fundie-lite (I think) and seems to enjoy her new life.

[freejoytoo]

Do the family still talk to her much? Would the girls be allowed to contact her if not? Aren't their phones and e-mails monitored?

[tabitha2]

She is the sister of their brothers wife who stayed a few weeks a few years ago-Not exactly life time friend material.

[lilwriter85]

This family drives me insane. They are revolting. I heard of them a while ago and looked them up, and could tell they were beyond insane but didn't know quite how much until I read about the ATI/Gothardism stuff. What kills me is how so many people think they are the best family in the world and how we should all try to be them. Because pushing out as many children as you can and letting your daughters raise them is something to aspire to.

The rules this family has makes me want to pull my hair out. Like how they say you shouldn't dance because it's arousing and thus totally ignoring religious dance, cultural dance and dancing in plays and soforth and aside from that, the family doesn't KNOW anyone outside of their own relatives so do they think dancing with your siblings is sexual? And what about the time one of the boys was dancing to a Fisher Price toy and the mum or dad turned it off because a CHILD dancing is abhorrent?! For a family so freakily obsessed with modesty they certainly like to make everything about sex and sexualise every little thing, like the Nike thing, which is so offensive I don't know where to begin. I'll just say that the boys would not have even noticed what they weren't supposed to see had Joy not covered the TV and Joy didn't even understand what she was covering and why she had to do it, which is even worse. They are so unbelievably narrow-minded, like how the girls parrot off that they could wear pants if they wanted to but choose not to, and how all of them choose not to listen to the Beatles because it's not 'their style', when in reality, everyone knows that it's because they have never had the option of wearing trousers or listening to any non-religious music. Then they make these vague statements about how Jill or Jana could be nurses (of course not doctors) when they have not had any kind of adequate education and none of them read anything outside purity books which may as well have been written in Saudi Arabia. None of the girls have real choices.

I watched the Duggars' trip to England and that made my blood boil too. I can't believe they came to my country and didn't appreciate any of it and could only talk about the weird food and the 'wrong side of the road'. No, YOU'RE driving on the 'wrong' side here and it's the OTHER side. And I would kill for my own personal tour of Stonehenge and I don't see why they should have got one simply for having a billion children. What I would have given to have seen the archaeologist tell them about the druids who still come there. The face the children pulled when the Scottish guy said he didn't believe in God was hilarious. I'd love to debate philosophy with Jim-Bob, though I don't know what to expect, seeing as he took his children to a creationism museum which is an oxymoron in itself.

Michelle is just as bad as Jim-Bob if not worse. What is with the baby voice and the whole 'I'm Mother of the Year but stopped raising the little ones a long time ago' act? And you just know she's a cow off-screen.

The worst thing about the Duggars though is how they are such total hypocrites. Michelle loves to spout the line of how 'it works for us, so don't judge, we won't tell you how to live your life' yet her husband tried to pass a bill banning birth control. Oh yeah, that's really live and let live, taking away women's reproductive rights. I am so glad that they are not in the same country as me.

Sorry for the long rant, but I've wanted to get that off my chest for a long time and as they're not that well-known here no one knows who they are and thus I can't really bitch about them. I don't know why I watch stuff about them - I have this weird fascination with fundies and can't seem to not look at the crazy. I always think that it can't get worse and it inevitably does. I've lurked for a while and read the TLC forums and would have posted there, but couldn't be bothered getting involved with ChrisLukas and her 'if you're pro-choice, move to China,. bitch' posts. I don't think she can be real. No one that ridiculous can live and have so many life stories oh-so similar to the Duggars. I think my favourite post was her saying that teaching teenagers safe sex is like telling them how to safely rob a bank.

Still, what would I know? I'm agnositic, leaning towards atheism, liberal, pro-choice female from England which has da ebil NHS and not only did I kiss someone I didn't intend to marry, I had premarital sex with my EX boyfriend whom I had no intention of marrying. How very defrauding!

Welcome to FJ. Very good post. The druids should have mentioned to the Duggars. The TLC forums are basically set to be pro Duggar forums, there have been incidents in which threads or posts disappear.

[fakepigtails73]

Humm...

Would Amy help them get out, or is she too "endebted" to her uncle JB that she would snitch on them?

The lack of support system outside of their immediate family is sad.

[lilwriter85]

Humm...

Would Amy help them get out, or is she too "endebted" to her uncle JB that she would snitch on them?

The lack of support system outside of their immediate family is sad.

Amy probably wouldn't help them out and she is indebted to Boob especially since she went on the world tour trip. Also she would fear pissing off Grandma Mary who owns the house she lives in.

[freejoytoo]

Welcome to FJ. Very good post. The druids should have mentioned to the Duggars. The TLC forums are basically set to be pro Duggar forums, there have been incidents in which threads or posts disappear.

Thanks you :) yeah, the moderating seemed far too crazy.

[lilwriter85]

Thanks you :) yeah, the moderating seemed far too crazy.

You're welcome. The moderating on the TLC forums is likely done as an attempt to keep certain details about the Duggars and other families from being found out. But there are a lot of places that detail the dark side of the Duggars' beliefs.

[fakepigtails73]

You're welcome. The moderating on the TLC forums is likely done as an attempt to keep certain details about the Duggars and other families from being found out. But there are a lot of places that detail the dark side of the Duggars' beliefs.

Ah, the TLC board...

One word: chrislukas.

Barfing away...

[freejoytoo]

Her posts were entertaining because they were so awful. I liked reading them but not the idea of actually getting into a conversation with her - she's pretty nasty!

[supernova8610]

My issue is not so much with a family having lots of kids or having conservative values. (For the record, I'm Christian, but a very socially liberal feminist one). My problem is that the Duggars are just popping out kids willy-nilly without any concern for Michelle's health, the overall health of the family, how to raise them outside of pushing them on the older daughters, etc. I also don't like the fact that the Duggars and other families and groups like them seem to have a strong interest in pushing these choices on the rest of us.

This. It's the way Michelle keeps popping out kids without any apparent concern that bothers me. I also don't like they way the older daughters are "assigned" a younger kid to parent... I'm not against helping out, of course, but they way the older daughters apparently are "mothers" to the younger kids, well... something is off about that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against large families. I'm all for it, so long as the kids are able to get enough attention from the parents and as long as the older kids aren't doing the parents' job of raising, and, also, so long as they have the finances and means to do so (I apologize for the run-on sentence).