Oh, for crying out loud, Skylar, really?

[Constance Vigilance]

I did not like her behavior with the Lina thing, like she could have started by sending Lina a warning, rather than just publishing an article about how Lina is a fake jew in comparison to her being in the right lane. that was incredibly rude, and I think immature.

See, I think her behaviour re: Lina was absolutely fine. Lina was/is being offensive and deceitful in appropriating a culture to which she by definition as a believer in Christ (whatever she's calling him) doesn't belong. Someone who didn't know better and came across her blog could be mislead -- because she is so adamant she is Jewish. Lina was/is wrong, was posting her lies publically, and deserved to be called out publically. No problem with that.

[Deleted03]

See, I think her behaviour re: Lina was absolutely fine. Lina was/is being offensive and deceitful in appropriating a culture to which she by definition as a believer in Christ (whatever she's calling him) doesn't belong. Someone who didn't know better and came across her blog could be mislead -- because she is so adamant she is Jewish. Lina was/is wrong, was posting her lies publically, and deserved to be called out publically. No problem with that.

I commented and she acknowledged it. I don't mind that she called her out per se. I mind that she did not talk to her before. I think blog shaming should happen if the other blogger either refuses to acknowledge there's a problem - for instance, Skylar could have asked her to take her blog down from Lina's blog. But she did not. She did not talk to her to explain her position and change the situation. She just read the blog decided it was a fake and poof shame her on the Internet. I don't think that's proper behavior. She agreed in the end that she could have handled it better.

Put yourself for a second in Lina's shoes (how's morning sickness?) you go about your business being what you think a jew, then one day on your own feed you see something that says do not read your blog. Even if Lina is a fake, she's still a human being and even if she does not understand properly the question of Judaism, I think her attraction to it is still genuine (in the sense she does not want harm to Jews). So yeah, not cool. But I did not wish to bring the debate to the table again, particularly since Skylar acknowledge it was quite indelicate the way she went about it.

[formergothardite]

Lina had been told over and over and over and over again that what she was doing was offensive and she didn't care. Publically calling her out for it was the best way to handle her.

[GryffindorFTW]

Put yourself for a second in Lina's shoes (how's morning sickness?)

Oh, I'm sure she's far beyond that stage now. :twisted:

[Constance Vigilance]

Put yourself for a second in Lina's shoes (how's morning sickness?) you go about your business being what you think a jew, then one day on your own feed you see something that says do not read your blog. Even if Lina is a fake, she's still a human being and even if she does not understand properly the question of Judaism, I think her attraction to it is still genuine (in the sense she does not want harm to Jews). So yeah, not cool. But I did not wish to bring the debate to the table again, particularly since Skylar acknowledge it was quite indelicate the way she went about it.

Lina knew that what she was doing was seriously offensive and was not Judaism, because she had been told so many times (including by people from this board, if I remember correctly). She was not innocent or unaware. She doesn't care if she harms Jews, as shown by her ignoring all correction/information and continuing to misrepresent Judaism. She chose to lie publically about Judaism and her role in it, so Skylar/Kochava (who Lina included in her blogroll) publically set the record straight.

"Messianic" Jews who fake their way into a conversion then "discover" Jesus a few years later and try to convert their congregation are a serious problem for other converts, and part of the reason conversions take as long as they do. Skylar/Kochava has every right to be angry at Lina for that. It could do her conversion serious harm to be seen to be associated with/condoning Lina.

We're not really fighting on this; I can see why you feel as you do. I just disagree. *shrug*

Edited for clarification.

[Dinorah]

I think with the Lina thing she had first tried to deal with it indirectly, with a more generic "Jesus is not Mosiach" article, but eventually got frustrated with her, which is sort of understandable.

But it looks like from the debacle with Chaviva and other things that Skylar might be getting paranoid, more than is justified by legitimate worries about fake Jews. The comment on haskalah is definitely odd, considering she comes across as educated and fairly streetwise.

[LucySnowe]

And also she always seems to point out how long it takes for the conversion, but I've been waiting for my new citizenship for a year and a half and of course I don't know if I'll ever get it. I understand she has to be a break on life's events like getting married and stuff, but what boggles my mind is that she WANTS this process. She accepts the terms of the game of an establishment that seems eager to have attitudes bordering harassment (or she's just paranoid). There's a certain blindness that comes with her position, but it's utterly annoying.

That's an interesting point. Wanting the process is different from wanting the result. I wanted to be a UK citizen very, very much, but I had to wait quite a long time - once I achieved permanent residency, it was a year and then however long it took them to process the application and THEN another few months for the damn ceremony. While I've been an Anglophile since I was a teenager, most of the reason I was gunning for citizenship was so the Home Office could never, ever screw with my life again, not because I had a deep yearning to complain about the weather. ;) And nothing in that 'process' was anything more than political games to show how everyone was being Tough On Immigration, and now that I'm British I can pretty much do what I like so long as it isn't illegal. I'm not required to keep playing the game, as it were.

Whereas Kochava, in the conversion process, is basically learning the rules of that game in order to play it forever. I can definitely see how that could start blinkering a person. Based on her blog, I cannot see her ever doing what Chaviva did (i.e. start dating a non-Jew); the problem is that she's seeing Chaviva's choice as a reflection on herself.

[ilovetchotchkes]

*sniff* But she left out us Conservatives. I know we're a "dying movement," but c'mon! :(

Ahem.

Anyway, yeah, I agree with ilovtchochkes. Like Chaviva doesn't have enough on her plate right now, for one, and for another, I'd also be asking some pretty hashkafa- and mussar-related questions if I were one of the rabbis on Skylar's beit din and saw that. I suspect she came to that realization herself, hence her deletion of the offending posts.

As far as the content itself, it makes Orthodoxy look bad. If your community is making you that paranoid and unhinged that you view every other convert as someone potentially capable of undermining your religious practice and earning you a "deconversion," or, if you go with what Skylar has to say and think you're not really paranoid if they're out to get you, which means that every convert you meet could potentially get you "deconverted" if you slip up, well, I'm going to go ahead and question your sanity for letting people have that kind of power over you, for one, and for actually trusting their judgement, for another. Frankly, this kind of bullshit is a large part of the reason I have zero interest in pursuing an Orthodox conversion. There are the egalitarian issues, as well, but they pale in comparison to this crap. The Torah is binding and from Sinai and all the rest, and I'm supposed to trust the judgement of people who behave like this to tell me what constitutes Torah and halacha and what doesn't? Thanks, but no thanks. As a Conservative convert, if I fall off the Jewish wagon, I might be a bad Jew, but at least I'm not going to have sharks circling me, itching to yank my conversion papers while I try and sort myself out.

Sorry, i've got a teething toddler who doesn't want mama, who wants "daddy" and all he does in daddy's arms is shriek like a ringwraith O_O Knew I forgot SOMEONE! herpdederp! (In fact, if my congregation swings back to "classical Reform" with no Hebrew and all English, I will probably seek out a Conservative conversion because quite frankly, that's where I fall observance wise in the spectrum)

ANYWAYS on topic:

The reason why you didn't/won't seek out a Orthodox conversion is the EXACT same reason why I won't. Its just ridiculous. I've heard stories of people going through HELL to convert Orthodox and then once they're "in" they're STILL a pariah.

If your community is making you that paranoid and unhinged that you view every other convert as someone potentially capable of undermining your religious practice and earning you a "deconversion," or, if you go with what Skylar has to say and think you're not really paranoid if they're out to get you, which means that every convert you meet could potentially get you "deconverted" if you slip up, well, I'm going to go ahead and question your sanity for letting people have that kind of power over you,

THIS. Why the FUCK would you sign your life away to people who are constantly going to judge you and criticize you?

I personally think the revocation of conversions is big steaming pile of horse shit. Why aren't born Jews and converted Jews under the same rules? they're SUPPOSED TO BE. I asked someone who was Orthodox this once, and I got this BULLSHIT answer of "its like citizenship in a country and not being born a citizen" uh, excuse me, once you're a citizen, you're a citizen right? at least here in the states. And this whole thing that it HAS happened makes people like Skylar freak the fuck out instead of enjoying the learning and the process and the journey.

[clibbyjo]

Damn, what exactly did Skylar say? I really did like her but I agree she's shifting way more to the right. I feel awful for all the crap that Chaviva had to read; people suck.

Wait,wait... Chaviva who just got divorced and moved to Denver? Who is she dating? The guy she just had pictured as one of her best friends? I read Chaviva but not Skylar.

[pomology]

I know Skylar somewhat, and I do think she meant to imply the Holocaust could be seen as a natural/psychological consequence of assimilation, not as a punishment. I don't agree with that either per se, but it is somewhat more understandable of a reasoning: Jews started being allowed to enter secular society, Jews became good at their jobs and quite powerful, ecomomic recession happens, BAM, Jews are being used as scapegoats because THEY TOOK OUR JOBS. I think the situation is much more complicated than that, obviously, but better that reasoning than the one that goes 'those damn Reform Jews! if they hadn't assimilated, the Holocaust would never have happened! PUNISHMENT!'. Which is a reasoning I've heard from at least one Orthodox Rabbi, by the way - so it's not even just Neo-Nazis and Haredim.

Skylar and Chaviva also have something of a history that goes back way before this post, I believe - and I agree, I think the fact that she's up to go to the mikvah sometime soon probably has something to do with it.

Eh, sometimes I disagree with her on certain issues, but she's quite vocal about her support for gay marriage and other liberal issues, which is pretty cool within the Orthodox world, so I generally like her. :)

As I said in an earlier post, the only reasons Jews were allowed to enter secular society is because the non-Jews thought it would make Jews more palatable. Then, yes, they got pissed because the Jews took their jobs etc. The point is that haterz gonna hate and no matter what the Jews did, the non-Jews were going to hate them.

[pomology]

Wait,wait... Chaviva who just got divorced and moved to Denver? Who is she dating? The guy she just had pictured as one of her best friends? I read Chaviva but not Skylar.

No, I think it's a different guy. Check out her posts from late December. It's called "The Big Reveal" or something like that. She seems really happy, which, in my opinion, is really great.

[LucySnowe]

I personally think the revocation of conversions is big steaming pile of horse shit. Why aren't born Jews and converted Jews under the same rules? they're SUPPOSED TO BE. I asked someone who was Orthodox this once, and I got this BULLSHIT answer of "its like citizenship in a country and not being born a citizen" uh, excuse me, once you're a citizen, you're a citizen right? at least here in the states.

In the UK they can indeed take away your citizenship:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... tizenship/

Pretty much for reasons of deception/fraud when you applied, or if they discover that you failed to mention that itsy bitsy act of genocide. Not if you got on the Tube and failed to tap in with your Oyster card. (But something like that *can* be used to deny you citizenship in the first place. Good character and all that. It's mental over here.)

[ilovetchotchkes]

In the UK they can indeed take away your citizenship:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... tizenship/

Pretty much for reasons of deception/fraud when you applied, or if they discover that you failed to mention that itsy bitsy act of genocide. Not if you got on the Tube and failed to tap in with your Oyster card. (But something like that *can* be used to deny you citizenship in the first place. Good character and all that. It's mental over here.)

Ok, thats a bit nuts (even though I LOVE the UK). But, my point is, you know, I've heard of conversions being revoked for the theological equal of not tapping in with your oyster card, or getting a parking ticket. I heard of one getting revoked because an Orthodox woman was caught, WEARING PANTS in her own yard, gardening. RIDICULOUS. I mean yes, this happened in an ULTRA orthodox community but its just irritating that it DID happen. ON the other hand, I know my Rabbi isn't going to yank mine if I post on facebook today "I ATE A CHEEZBURGER AND IT WAS DEELICIOUS"

[Esther]

Ok, thats a bit nuts (even though I LOVE the UK). But, my point is, you know, I've heard of conversions being revoked for the theological equal of not tapping in with your oyster card, or getting a parking ticket. I heard of one getting revoked because an Orthodox woman was caught, WEARING PANTS in her own yard, gardening. RIDICULOUS. I mean yes, this happened in an ULTRA orthodox community but its just irritating that it DID happen. ON the other hand, I know my Rabbi isn't going to yank mine if I post on facebook today "I ATE A CHEEZBURGER AND IT WAS DEELICIOUS"

Yeah, Orthodox conversions can be taken away pretty easily. I agree that born Jews and converts should be treated equally - once a Jew, always a Jew. Of course, reality isn't that way, which is one of a number of reasons why I don't plan to ever go Orthodox. Though sometimes I do think Skylar's fears are a little extreme, I certainly think she has some reasons to feel as she does.

I didn't think her comments to Chaviva were that bad seen in context - Chaviva has been portraying herself as the Number One Source on Jewish conversion forever and has been basically saying 'DON'T DATE GENTILES, IT WILL MAKE US ALL LOOK BAD AND THEY WILL TAKE AWAY OUR CONVERSIONS' forever, so when she suddenly went and broke all her own rules, people were a little iffy about it. I don't particularly care one way or another, but then I'm not an Orthodox convert. Maybe I'm biased though because I like Skylar better than Chaviva.

I really didn't think her Lina post was bad, though - I agree with CV: Lina is very, very well aware of what she's doing and of how offensive her whole I AM TOTALLY A JEW BUT LOOK HOW YAH-SOME YESHUA IS spiel is to actual Jews. I don't feel bad for her in the least, and she had it coming.

[Esther]

As I said in an earlier post, the only reasons Jews were allowed to enter secular society is because the non-Jews thought it would make Jews more palatable. Then, yes, they got pissed because the Jews took their jobs etc. The point is that haterz gonna hate and no matter what the Jews did, the non-Jews were going to hate them.

I totally agree with you. After all, persecution of Jews WAY predates what's generally considered the era of assimilation into gentile society - and I certainly didn't mean to imply that gentiles allowed Jews to assimilate out of the goodness of their sweet little hearts.

I just meant, from her comments elsewhere, I believe she meant her remark in that kind of vein - assimilation happened, this pissed off gentiles even further because suddenly they felt threatened, more genocide happened - rather than in the 'DAMN ASSIMILATIONISTS. THEY CAUSED THE HOLOCAUST!' way. Both beliefs may be essentially inaccurate, but the former is significantly less... awful.

[pomology]

I totally agree with you. After all, persecution of Jews WAY predates what's generally considered the era of assimilation into gentile society - and I certainly didn't mean to imply that gentiles allowed Jews to assimilate out of the goodness of their sweet little hearts.

I just meant, from her comments elsewhere, I believe she meant her remark in that kind of vein - assimilation happened, this pissed off gentiles even further because suddenly they felt threatened, more genocide happened - rather than in the 'DAMN ASSIMILATIONISTS. THEY CAUSED THE HOLOCAUST!' way. Both beliefs may be essentially inaccurate, but the former is significantly less... awful.

Well, as I implied earlier, I was most offended by the shoddy history. Because I'm just that much of a history nerd.

[emmiedahl]

There is nothing that Jews could have done to prevent or stop the Holocaust. They were the Official Scapegoats of Europe, so they were going to bear the blame when the shit hit the fan regardless of their accepted position in society. The moral of the story is that Jews can't win, we are a hated people for all of recorded history with a few short periods of begrudging acceptance. :)